Third Party: If So, Then What?

Looking back into recent history, one question to ask is what type of people were buying a lot of 3PP stuff during the heady 3E days of 2000-2002.

Besides the obvious case of compulsive completionists who bought (almost) everything, was it mainly hardcore DMs and powergamers who regularly bought 3E 3PP stuff? How often did less hardcore players/DMs buy 3pp stuff?

For example, how many less hardcore players/DMs actually bought stuff like Kingdoms of Kalamar, Scarred Lands, etc ... back in 2001-2003?
 
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As an aside, my anecdotal evidence* seems to indicate that the use of the CB is far from 100% among the 4e players I know. Some players don't want to pay for the DDI; some players don't like the DDI or CB for whatever reason; some players just prefer an alternate "output" -- so while they might use the CB, they don't print out the power cards or character sheets; they write things by hand. And if you're going to write things by hand, then using third-party stuff is no big deal.

Can you cross-reference your anecdotal friends by how much 3pp stuff they have bought in the past? And if you can, could you compare that with what camp they are in among your sample reasons not to use the DDI: won't pay, don't like DDI/CB and/or prefer alt output? I realize you might not have this much statistical analysis but it would be interesting if we could find out.
 

I've offered Goodman Games Forgotten Heroes and the Expetidious Retreat Press material.

No takers.

We've got one guy who uses the cards and no DDI.

One brand new player to 4e and someone else made his character.

The other three and myself all have DDI. I will NOT be writing out all of that stuff by hand. At best, I'd keep the book onhand and just use post it flags to note what abilities I had.
 

I've offered Goodman Games Forgotten Heroes and the Expetidious Retreat Press material.

For these two particular titles, Goodman and XRP probably knew from the beginning that they would have a relatively short shelf life, especially once the 4E PHB2 was released. At several FLGS nearby, the owners mentioned that these two books have largely been collecting dust ever since they were first released. At the bigger FLGS, the owner mentioned only 3 people so far have actually purchased either of these two books.
 

I wasn't even aware of much of the 3pp market, until towards the end of the 3.5E era. I completely missed the heady early days of 3E. (I was still on my very long hiatus away from gaming at the time).

Back in the day, the only 3pp I was aware of was Judges Guild. Their modules looked kind of amateurish compared to TSR's offerings back then.
It was a different market back then. For one thing, WotC wasn't releasing books very quickly, and third-party publishers filled the void. (For example, the S&S Creature Catalog came out before the actual 3e Monster Manual. ) For another thing, the whole idea of third-party content was new and fresh. Finally, the production standards were way lower... AEG put out pamphlet modules, other companies' mechanics were less than solid, and there was kind of a wild west feel to the whole thing.

And, importantly, the initial third-party rush gave the success stories a good quantity of cash to make more stuff. The ones who are still around today took their success and branched outwards - so Green Ronin has M&M; Mongoose has Paranoia, Runequest, etc.; Paizo had the magazines and a whole line of edition-neutral products, and so on. Production values improved, less competitive companies dried up, and by the mid-end of 3.5, everything being produced and sold was of a pretty high standard.

We're still at that point. Standards are high. There's an expectation that 3pp's understand the mechanics they're writing for. Full-color is almost demanded nowadays, too. A 3pp needs to be able to compete with WotC on their home turf, and that's frankly a pretty tall order.

-O
 

Can you cross-reference your anecdotal friends by how much 3pp stuff they have bought in the past?
This ended up pretty long and rambling... using s-blocks to avoid the Wall of Text effect.

But to answer the question,
[sblock]The majority of my sample consists of dudes who play Living Forgotten Realms (LFR), the 4e RPGA campaign. At the store where I play, there is a good sized group, about 30 people. About one-third are old-timers (started with AD&D 1e or earlier), one-third started with 3e, and one-third are new to D&D.

Note that if you exclusively play LFR, there is very little reason to buy third-party stuff for 4e, as you can't use it in LFR. But, that said... and bear in mind this is pretty speculative on my part, and I'm going to use a lot of weasel words so you can't pin me down on anything

* 9 out of the 10 old-timers regularly bought third-party stuff in the past, especially during the 3e days. There is one bad-tempered guy who "refused to buy any of that crap", and goes around griping about why we aren't playing 1e instead... I'm not even sure why he plays LFR, frankly. I think because his friends do.

* 4 or 5 out of the 10 3e-era guys bought third-party stuff. They had some kind of ongoing (3e) campaign at the game store, so they were exposed to it all the time anyway. Of the other half, I think they knew about it but just weren't into the game enough to buy much more than the 3e PH, if that.

* 0 out of the 10 "new to D&D" guys used to buy third-party stuff. Obviously. :) But technically some of them have bought third-paty stuff for 4e: that one-buck adventure that Goodman (?) was selling, and Level Up magazine (also prominent in the store).

Now, you wanted to know how this matches up with "use of the CB", so here goes.

* Old-timers: I think all but one of them (us) use the CB, even the angry guy. Perhaps it is because this group skews older, and has been playing longer, so we don't get as much of a thrill as we used to out of laboriously filling out character sheets by hand.

The one guy who doesn't use the CB is the local Point of Contact for the LFR! Go figure. (He uses some character sheet / power tracker he found online and writes it out by hand.)

* 3e guys, subset who bought third-party stuff: hmm... two definitely use the CB, not sure about the other two or three.

* 3e guys, subset who didn't buy third-party stuff: again, I think two or three do use the CB, the others don't.

Of the ones who don't (both subsets), "don't like the format" is the most frequent complaint I here.

* New with 4e guys: now strangely, only 4 out of the 10 seem to use the CB regularly. I think some of the others started to when it was free (beta), but didn't want to shell out for the DDI subscription. But honestly I don't know the newbies that well (big age difference), so I'm not sure why they don't use the CB.[/sblock]

And if you can, could you compare that with what camp they are in among your sample reasons not to use the DDI: won't pay, don't like DDI/CB and/or prefer alt output?
Kind of answered above, but to put another spin on it:

[sblock]* I think "won't pay" is primarily a factor for the new-with-4e guys, because they are younger, less committed to the game, have less disposable income, and more free time to spend filling out character sheets by hand. They would rather spend their X dollars / month (that would've gone towards the DDI) on beer or movies or whatever.

* I think the "prefer alt output" is primarily a factor for the old-timers and the hardcore 3e-guys. We've been around, we're used to memorizing rule, so we don't need the full CB power card output, just something to trigger our memories, and the relevant math. The CB output has too much information for our old, tired brains. However! We do have the disposable income to pay for the DDI, so we probably use the CB to check our math.

* I think the "don't like DDI" isn't much of a factor for the crowd I play with. By definition, it's a 4e crowd, so those who really dislike the DDI (and by extension 4e) are not in the sample.[/sblock]

= = =

Now one thing I touched on above is the RPGA. As a third-party publisher, this is basically an impossible market to get into, because by fiat an RPGA player can only use official content (meaning WotC stuff).

But there are two reasons for a third-party publisher to hope. (IMUO -- U = uninformed.) One, I think the number of players who only play RPGA is pretty small -- anecdotally (again) the vast majority are also in an non-RPGA campaign. So you can still sell them stuff to use in their home campaign.

Two, you can take a page from Paizo's book and make your own organized play campaign. (Maybe. I have no idea of the legality of doing this with 4e, nor do I really want to speculate on that aspect.)

Or, make it less "organized play" and more like what WotC used to do with the Dragon magazine adventures: have a way for the players and DMs to report when they've played one of your third-party adventures -- which of course has tie-ins with other player-focused products you sell -- and then give them some kind of tracked "points" or "frequent gamer miles" that they can trade in for goodies of some sort.

Again, I think if you give people a sufficient reason to buy (and use) your product, the barrier posed by the CB can be overcome. It's just a matter of finding something that appeals to people enough to get them to overcome the annoyance of not using the CB.
 

Two, you can take a page from Paizo's book and make your own organized play campaign. (Maybe. I have no idea of the legality of doing this with 4e, nor do I really want to speculate on that aspect.)

Or, make it less "organized play" and more like what WotC used to do with the Dragon magazine adventures: have a way for the players and DMs to report when they've played one of your third-party adventures -- which of course has tie-ins with other player-focused products you sell -- and then give them some kind of tracked "points" or "frequent gamer miles" that they can trade in for goodies of some sort.

I think the second option is more viable for 3PP. If a publisher were to launch their own organized play it would have to offers something the WOTC does not. Paizo offers a different system. I'm not sure what else a small publisher could do to complete with LFR.
 

[...]something akin to nine mini-adventures of between approx. 3-5 encounters each. With notes on how each could be linked to form one big adventure, or even how the mini-adventures could themselves be expanded.

Does that format sound appealing?

Yes. This is exactly what I would buy (even if one adventure is something akin to "travel through the fire swamp and avoid its three dangers"). The caveat being that the encounters need to do something that I can't do quickly myself: mix interesting terrain with interesting monsters, and make sure the interesting parts actually come into play.
 

Hey there dangerous jack! :)

dangerous jack said:
Yes. This is exactly what I would buy (even if one adventure is something akin to "travel through the fire swamp and avoid its three dangers").

I will point out at this stage that the adventure I am working on, "Against the Reptile God" is Epic Tier, technically its against Set, although you could translate that as Zehir I suppose. ;)

The final 'Delve' where you take on the (Greater) God himself will be beyond Level 30 PCs, however, success in the preceeding delves will lead to a bunch of mitigating factors that will reduce him in power through various means, making him just about beatable.

The caveat being that the encounters need to do something that I can't do quickly myself: mix interesting terrain with interesting monsters, and make sure the interesting parts actually come into play.

I have some interesting stuff planned, I'd love to spill the beans on it but probably best if I keep tight lipped for now. ;)
 


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