D&D 5E (2024) This Feels Like 4E

[Neonchameleon]

So you're saying D&D should work to exclude players like that??

Not to exclude them. Just to empower the DM to apply the rolled up newspaper. But this is where the "rules as user interface" and "rules as physics engine" people are on different sides; weapon juggling is as much an obvious exploit as the bag of rats or the peasant railgun.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Just to empower the DM to apply the rolled up newspaper.

You can’t empower a DM into a good leader with rules. That’s a combination of aptitude and practice. Advice, and a willingness to listen, help though.

 

[mamba]

I think there is a large difference between the game presenting a no-brainer choice, and the game punishing you if you don't make that choice.

In the latter case, yeah, the game is pretty much responsible. If the PC will be just fine if they don't make that choice, though, it isn't the game's fault if the player makes it.

that is a very fine line, I see little difference between ‘you deal less damage if you do not swap weapons’ and ‘the game punishes you if you do not swap’.

You can say that it rewards doing so rather than punishes not doing so, but rewards encourage a certain behavior just as much as punishment deters from it

 

[mamba]

nvm

 

[mamba]

Is doing something that isn't fun, is unnecessary, and is clearly against the design intent a common human behaviour? We need to get ourselves some better humans!

The last decade has firmly established that we desperately need better humans, but we are stuck with what we have instead, so good luck with that

 

[MichaelSomething]

You can’t empower a DM into a good leader with rules. That’s a combination of aptitude and practice. Advice, and a willingness to listen, help though.

Which is why I advocate that new DMs undergo apprenticeships under veteran DM to learn how to run games.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Which is why I advocate that new DMs undergo apprenticeships under veteran DM to learn how to run games.

It’s always good if possible.

Or do teacher training, the skills are very transferable!

 

[Neonchameleon]

You can’t empower a DM into a good leader with rules. That’s a combination of aptitude and practice. Advice, and a willingness to listen, help though.

You can however model best practice in the DMG. And explain the purpose of actually having rules and their relationship with the game world.

Which is why I advocate that new DMs undergo apprenticeships under veteran DM to learn how to run games.

This is a good idea with two caveats:

• Not everyone starting out has a veteran DM to hand; the expectation as written into the books should be that this is unnecessary if desirable
• The worst DMs I've played with have been not newbies but veterans who've had their bad habits bed in. (That said there's survivor bias so the chances of getting a bad veteran DM is lower).

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I would argue the basic line was reasonably casual.

I had been referring primarily to the Advanced line, so that wouldn't be that much of a problem.

I would still argue that the Basic line was only relatively beginner-friendly compared to the Advanced line. Yes, it is more--significantly so!--compared to 1e, 2e, etc. You'll never hear me say otherwise. But it's still got a pretty high bar.

Have you, for example, ever tried to show something like Super Mario Bros. to an adult who never played any video games before? It's an experience, let me tell you. It's not that folks cannot learn, it's that there's an entire language of terms, mechanics, visuals, symbols, etc. that such a person simply does not know. They have to learn everything from the ground up, and it's really, REALLY hard not to go racing off at 100x the speed they're actually comfortable learning.

The exact same thing applies to TTRPGs, except that they're even more difficult because they're non-visual, abstract, and math-heavy, all of which are significant hurdles to learning. I'm not saying that Basic is some kind of monstrosity or actively anti-player or the like, but it was only kinda-sorta new-player-friendly back in the day...and we've learned a LOT more about how to make a smooth and accessible onboarding experience. Like...literally decades of pedagogy and education studies specifically on how to introduce people to new topics.

 

[Reef]

The way I see it, weapon juggling is very much in the same ballpark as the Bag of Rats, and the Peasant Railgun. Sure, it’s technically allowed, but obviously against the spirit of rules.

Doesn’t mean players won’t try to take advantage. I’m sure we’ve all had players like that at some point. Way back when we were in high school, I had a friend who was notorious for coming up with stuff like that. And every time he explained some weird rule combination that would somehow give him 5 attacks a round at 1st level (true example btw), whoever was the DM would listen, and then say “No”. Or, “Hell no!”. Accompanied (at least once) with a thrown d20 . And the game would continue.

So, I don’t doubt there are groups dealing with this. But I’m slightly boggled why the DM just doesn’t say “no” if they feel it’s a problem. Sure, the rules could have added a line somewhere to officially nix this. But if they added a line to anticipate and nix every crazy min max strategy players come up with, the book would be twice as long. And they’d still miss something…