This "resting at 9:05 AM" business

I'd suggest that problems fall on both sides: DMs who don't give players the time needed to create magic items, and players who don't want their spellcasters to be a level or two behind the tanks. IMHO from the very earliest stages, spellcasters should be walking libraries, with plenty of scrolls. A second level spellcaster may only have a couple of first level spells memorised, but she should have a dozen or more extra spells on scrolls.
 

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I only post this because I haven't seen anyone here posting anything that makes me think they've forgotten that "...the PCs are adventurers and explorers, they are going to plan well, prepare well, and take things at a pace that allows them the best chances of success. they are going to go into the unknown and, yes, they are going to have to fight the things that live there, but they are also going to discover things, have to solve puzzles, and produce maps and journals of their adventures."

Nothing anyone's said, and that includes at WotC, would cause any of that quoted statement to not still be true. Let's take a deep breath and try to keep things in perspective. :)

Reynard said:
On wands: a "1st level dungeon" (ie one in which the characters are expected to rise to 2nd level) will have 13 encounters at CR1. Each of thsoe encounters should net an average of 300 gp. That is a total of 3900 gp. It is not unreasonable to assume that a 750 gp wand (or a 375 gp half charged wand, even) would be available somewhere therein.

On scrolls: PC spellcasters get access to scribe scroll for a reason.

On the role of the wizard: if all you are doing during the day, yes, the low level wizard is a loadstone on the back of the rest of the party. But, really, what is the point of playing a role-playing game like D&D if all you are going to engage in is combat. this is my problem with the "re-balancing" of 3.5 and the things we have seen about 4e -- it is all about combat. hell, even social encounters are "combat" now. Only combat capability matters as far as "balance" goes, which means that only combat matters as far as "adventures" go. they turned the dungeon -- and adventuring environment -- into an arena in the Design and Development article.

Basically, the way I se eit is that if the PCs are adventurers and explorers, they are going to plan well, prepare well, and take things at a pace that allows them the best chances of success. they are going to go into the unknown and, yes, they are going to have to fight the things that live there, but they are also going to discover things, have to solve puzzles, and produce maps and journals of their adventures. These things seem to have been forgotten not just by D&D, but, judging by many of the responses in this thread and others, by the people that play the game too.

Which is fine and all. i'll play my way, you play yours. But it is also why I am running 1E instead of getting all cranked about 4E. The things I have heard about 4E have reminded me what I really like about D&D, and 4E ain't it.

Especially in regards to the resource management and exploration aspects of the game.
 

In my high-level Monday game, the "rest after five minutes" thing happens every single session. And it's been happening for a while now.

It's not bunk.
 

Shayuri said:
That, of course, also means trying to keep them in relative balance, so it's not like I'm advocating making wizards (or warriors) godlike beings with no weaknesses. I'm just saying that if you CAN make it so the wizard -and- the warrior are useful for every battle, instead of just certain kinds of battle, why not do it?


That just makes me think of this: "If everyone is special, then no one is."
 

SavageRobby said:
That just makes me think of this: "If everyone is special, then no one is."

Hee... Except we're not talking about specialness. We're talking about possible ways in which a particular change in rules might (or might not) make a game more fun.

No one's taking the specialness away, don't worry. :)
 


Arr...well, hard to say for sure until I see the actual rules. I can't say there's no suck potential.

But I think if it's handled well, it could be an improvement too.

Time will tell.
 

SavageRobby said:
I agree. I read it as everyone is going to be special now, all the time.

Me? I don't like that design philosophy.
Yar, everything is speculation at this point. I doubt that everyone will be equally good at doing everything, I just hope that there's a reduction in the number of times where a player feels like they have no options.
 

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
Having one class suck to play for a large part of the campaign is not a sacred cow worth preserving, much less celebrating.

"Bob, your fun will be doing squat for most of the evening, and then in the final encounter, you're going to bust out the spell that saves the day."

"My spell only does 1d6 damage at level 1."

"Right, SAVE THAT SPELL, because that'll totally save the day when you cast it two or three times in the final battle."

"But that's the same as your sword damage!"

"You're a good man, Bob!"

Everyone at the table should get to have fun.



Or, instead of being a moron and taking a 1d6 damage/caster level spell, the level 1 wizard could, I dunno, take SLEEP or something in that vein. Now that 1st level spell takes out the CR:3 Ogre that would have pounded the fighter into pink paste.
 

Shayuri said:
....
I mean, for example, it's not beyond possibility that a wizard in 4e might have some kind of at-will magic bolt that does crummy damage but strikes as a ranged touch. Inferior even to 1st level spells, but replaces the "crossbow" with something he can at least feel somewhat useful with...but doesn't appreciably increase his real power level....


Kinda like the wizard in Gauntlet! Infinate puny fireballs, but his magic potions are the BEST!!
 

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