• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

D&D 3E/3.5 Thoughts of a 3E/4E powergamer on starting to play 5E

Not my experience, I find 5e to be at least as hackable as 4e, probably more.

I found AD&D to be the most hackable D&D. It felt absolutely necessary to hack it, and hacking it rarely had unintended consequences down the road.

3E was a mess and seemed to demand hacking, but I was never satisfied with the results. There were always unintended consequences that made an even bigger mess than what I was trying to clean up. The only success I ever had was in reskinning things and taking mechanics from somewhere in 3E and cutting and pasting them onto someplace new

4E reflavoring or minor tweaks went well, but big changes really took too much work for too little payoff to be worth it.

5E has such a specific sort of vibe to it that a lot of changes don't seem to feel right. The game also has a fairly specific mathematical framework that making drastic changes feels like throwing that whole framework out to the point where you have to fudge everything from that point on or rewrite the math from scratch.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Bringing this discussion back around to my original point that I made early in this thread: It's not that 5E lacks the ability to powergame. What 5E lacks is reliability. It's unreliability is reinforced through their systems of "rulings not rules" by essentially saying that the "game" is whatever the DM happens to feel like it should be. There's no consistency. Every table has always been different, but the difference is different in 5E. Typically, people play the same system in different manners, through different campaigns, each one more befitting to someone's flavor of D&D than another. Now, however, what's different isn't just the types of games that exist, there are literally no expectations between tables. You can't even count on the rules to be the same.

That's NOT a good thing for a game.

Yet it has worked for every edition of D&D. You can play and powergame by RAW in 5e, no DM rulings needed, 100% reliable. Doing so may or may not give you the experience you are looking for.

Rulings have always been a part of D&D and the DM has always had the freedom to change and modify things. It is not like 5e is saying you can throw out the rule book. Saying you can't count on the rules being the same from table to table is just hyperbole.
 

5E is kind of a muddle of all three. It's robust in a general sense but leaves so much to the DM that the end result is dependent on the DM. It being good is more or less a matter of taste, as the system is thin to the point where there's not much there if it doesn't appeal to you by default. It's flexible from the DMs side, but has an almost overwhelming bias towards a fairly specific style of D&D.

What style of D&D is 5e biased toward in your opinion. We have played gritty, low magic, high magic, and fantasy super-hero with 5e. We have not tried horror yet, but OotA and CoS seem to be covering them to a degree.
 

5E has such a specific sort of vibe to it that a lot of changes don't seem to feel right. The game also has a fairly specific mathematical framework that making drastic changes feels like throwing that whole framework out to the point where you have to fudge everything from that point on or rewrite the math from scratch.

This viewpoint seems very personal and has little to with the actual system IMO. We've tried all kinds of changes with minimal impact. We are discussing dropping in 4e powers in a future session and I don't expect any issues (I'm already using elite & solo monsters and we have bloodied HP).

Also, I don't think it has a more mathematical framework than 4e.
 

I found AD&D to be the most hackable D&D. It felt absolutely necessary to hack it, and hacking it rarely had unintended consequences down the road.

Well, I hacked 1e the most, but that doesn't make it the most hackable in my opnion. It just required more hacking. So far I am doing a similar amount of hacking to 5e to what we did with 4e. Though it is nice to bring in some of the improvements 4e made to 5e.
 

This viewpoint seems very personal and has little to with the actual system IMO. We've tried all kinds of changes with minimal impact. We are discussing dropping in 4e powers in a future session and I don't expect any issues (I'm already using elite & solo monsters and we have bloodied HP).

Also, I don't think it has a more mathematical framework than 4e.

It not only has less of a mathematical framework than 4E, it has less of a mathematical framework than 3E(3E's math just tended not to add up most of the time). The difference is that I never found it necessary or desirable to make massive changes to 4E. 3E I felt the need and was fighting the (bad) math of that game every step of the way, and almost always lost. In AD&D the math was was usually arbitrary, and you could change it without too much hassle because there really wasn't any rhyme or reason to it.

For 5E it might be less of a framework but it is there. I'm a math guy. I see the math and it really bothers me when it doesn't work or add up. If I change something that affects the math, it needs to add up and still work or I'm not going to be happy with it. When I look at 5E as a DM with the goal of modifying it to do what I want, I am ending up in conflict with that math. That's what I meant by either just wrecking the math and having to fudge everything, or having to rewrite the math from scratch which is a lot of work.
 

For 5E it might be less of a framework but it is there. I'm a math guy. I see the math and it really bothers me when it doesn't work or add up. If I change something that affects the math, it needs to add up and still work or I'm not going to be happy with it. When I look at 5E as a DM with the goal of modifying it to do what I want, I am ending up in conflict with that math. That's what I meant by either just wrecking the math and having to fudge everything, or having to rewrite the math from scratch which is a lot of work.

Interesting. What do see as the math framework in 5e. What about it is constraining. I like the math to work, but I don't feel overly constrained by it. Ultimately I feel like it has never "worked" as intended in any addition. Even after the correction in 4e it still didn't work as intended. I always had to make things up as went anyway. I appreciate the concept though.

I remember Cyberdave on the WotC boards who was a big "math" guy who found the math in 5e very pleasing. To clarify it met his desire for math balance of combat effectiveness and difference in classes (he liked the attempt at balance in 4e, but disliked that all the classes had the same structure).
 

Interesting. What do see as the math framework in 5e. What about it is constraining. I like the math to work, but I don't feel overly constrained by it. Ultimately I feel like it has never "worked" as intended in any addition. Even after the correction in 4e it still didn't work as intended. I always had to make things up as went anyway. I appreciate the concept though.

I remember Cyberdave on the WotC boards who was a big "math" guy who found the math in 5e very pleasing. To clarify it met his desire for math balance of combat effectiveness and difference in classes (he liked the attempt at balance in 4e, but disliked that all the classes had the same structure).

The math framework in any RPG is really too big to explain in a forum post, and that applies to 5E. What is constraining about it is that it doesn't do what I want it to do, yet things are interconnected to the point where it's hard to change things without messing other things up.

For me, with 4E the math 90% worked(a record for tabletop RPGs) and I was more or less satisfied with the system as is. Most people complaining about the math in 4E either were instead complaining about dissatisfaction with the system 'as is' or just didn't understand the math. The math got a little sloppier as the levels got higher in 4E, but the system tended to bend not break. They changed the math slightly with PHB 2 and MM 2, but it honestly wasn't any better or worse. They just changed priorities, trading some minor flaws(players falling behind monsters in terms of statistics, speed of play) for other minor flaws(taking some of the challenge out of higher levels). It worked as intended either way, it just wasn't perfect and no game is.

5E math more or less works, it's not as tight as 4E but it is a lower priority from a system standpoint so the bugs don't stand out as much, but as I've established in this thread I'm not happy with 5E 'as is' and trying to houserule it to where I want it to be would involve picking a fight with the math.
 

Interesting. There are a lot of things I've liked about 5E--I'll admit I'm not much of an old-schooler, as I started playing with 3.5, switched to 4th Edition for the duration of its support, and started playing 5th edition a few months back.

At first, I really liked what 5th edition did with the game. Combat being quick and decisive is a boon in many cases, and I like there being less fiddly bits to keep track of all the time. Replacing the various small bonuses with advantage/disadvantage is the main thing here, and bounded accuracy keeps things from breaking due to that.

However, the more I play, the more I see some issues. First off is the sheer randomness and unreliability of the system, which is definitely there. Some of this, I imagine, is from the reduction of those "fiddly bits". Putting aside the base math of the system for a moment, in 4th edition, if you were going to be hit by an attack, there were numerous tricks you could utilize to mitigate the hit, if you chose such options when creating your character (you could give them up to hit harder or whatever if you wanted). This is much less true in 5E--such things do exist, but tend to be more costly (a daily spell slot, or an every-4th-level feat).

The gap between the "skilled" and the "unskilled" has grown smaller. No, I'm not talking about power-gamers vs. casuals here, I'm speaking of proficiency. The bonus from proficiency is smaller, and there are less small bonuses you can add to specialize your character in a particular skill. The fact that the number you add to the d20 is now much smaller and you have fewer "fiddly bits" to invest in to make it bigger means that someone who is proficient in a skill is only going to succeed more often than someone else of similar caliber who is not proficient on 3 out of 20 die rolls. This is an issue caused by the bounded accuracy system, and it ties into how "unreliable" things are--it feels as though your choices matter less than the dice. Expertise helps this somewhat, but the fact that it's limited to only two classes and only affects some of their skills is problematic. To use a quick example, the proficiency bonus to a skill at 1st level in 4th edition was +5, and you could easily secure another +2 from race/background/theme choices. To say nothing of certain baseline powers like speak with spirits which could significantly boost skill bonuses. In 5th edition, it starts at +2, and scales up very slowly.

I'll emphasize that I fully understand the benefits of removing all these small bonuses and choices in favor of the much-hailed "bounded accuracy", but I am now coming to terms with the cost and not sure if I like that it was like that. I'd much rather have my cake and eat it too.

5E's swingy, quick combat also is a boon at first that I am starting to see holes in. Notably, and call me a video gamer or whatever if you must, but while I'm cool with the adventurers tearing through a dungeon, having its ups and downs and what-nots, but when they reach the deepest level of the underground lair or the very top of the wizard's tower, there must be a climactic, exciting, cinematic battle to finish things off. And I'm having trouble pulling this off in 5th edition. I want the PCs to confront the evil wizard and have an exciting battle against him and his minions, only for the wizard, upon his death, to transform into a giant scenery-changing old god that warps reality around himself and changes the nature of the fight dynamically.

The problem is, for as flexible as 5th edition claims to be, I find that 5th edition PCs are simply not capable of handling a longer, challenging, dynamic battle (or at least, the majority are not). If the battle is deadly, it must be over quick or the PCs simply will not be able to keep up with the damage/control the enemy is throwing at them. In 4th edition, PCs were durable enough I didn't have to worry as much about this. In 5th edition, I have to be very worried. I'm still trying things here--certainly, one key is having the PCs be fighting the "lair" as much as they fight the "boss", but I'm not entirely certain I want to stick to the lair/legendary action structure--it seems a little rigid to me, and the math constraints of the CR system given in the DMG for balancing monster damage/HP/etc. are rather complex (where are my 5E adventure tools WotC? I used the 4E version of this thing for ages after support for it was discontinued, if just because it handled a lot of the math for me, and 5E did no favors by making the "behind the screen" math even more complicated). I have to question--was this sacrifice necessary? I understand the want for quicker, simpler battles, but did we have to lose the big boss fight in the process? I would hope not, but so far on the DM side it's been a real challenge.

I felt a lot more comfortable homebrewing monsters and encounters in 4th edition than I do in 5th edition. I realize some of this is due to experience with the system, but it seems like the more familiar I get with 5E, the harder it gets, rather than the expected outcome of getting easier. This is because it's really not that flexible, behind the scenes--PCs are flimsier, and they have fewer tricks, so you can't push as hard without breaking them. Monsters also in general tend to be more vulnerable, due to the impact certain spells like Banishment or Wall of Force can have on a fight. Certainly don't plan for monsters to launch team attacks or coordinated assaults outside of surprise situations, because if they're not being OHKO'd by focus-fire or a glass-cannon character, they're being put in encounter-duration time-out by the party caster.

There are also fewer monsters on the board. As CR increases, the amount you can put on the board before the encounter turns "deadly" becomes quite small. 5E combat works best when dealing with small groups of monsters, and starts to show significant problems when it's stretched beyond that. A horde of weak enemies is either trivial if you blast them with a Fireball, or grueling if you're unable to utilize that kind of effect for whatever reason (either you don't have a caster, or the positioning is wrong for it). Very little in the way of "middle ground". Fewer monsters on the board means fewer opportunities for interesting or exciting encounters, unfortunately. Not to say you can't have them, but it certainly limits your options when the system only really works when you do it one way. And the single powerful enemy has most of the problems of older editions, though legendary/lair actions do show that they are learning and getting better at it as a result of how 4th edition solo monsters evolved over the years. I still don't think it's quite there yet though. I wouldn't want to run a solo adult dragon vs. a same-level-as-CR party, as I don't think it would end well for the dragon unless the PCs are incapable of dealing with its ability to fly (which is a pass/fail kind of mechanic that I don't really like).

That turned into a lot more text than intended and I probably rambled at times. Hope I got some points across though, and maybe someone will glean some insight from the struggles I'm having with the transition.
 
Last edited:

For me, with 4E the math 90% worked(a record for tabletop RPGs) and I was more or less satisfied with the system as is. Most people complaining about the math in 4E either were instead complaining about dissatisfaction with the system 'as is' or just didn't understand the math. The math got a little sloppier as the levels got higher in 4E, but the system tended to bend not break. They changed the math slightly with PHB 2 and MM 2, but it honestly wasn't any better or worse. They just changed priorities, trading some minor flaws(players falling behind monsters in terms of statistics, speed of play) for other minor flaws(taking some of the challenge out of higher levels). It worked as intended either way, it just wasn't perfect and no game is.

I disagree, epic level math never worked - even after MM3. And perception that PCs fell behind the math curve initially was only true for some. If you had group synergy (which I contend was 4e's greatest strength and design intent), then there wasn't a math problem and then they created one. No to mention the damage that could be done at all times was just crazy huge and completely destroyed the game math if you were not prepared for it.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top