D&D 5E (2024) Thoughts on New Bladesinger?

[Mistwell]

And I just completely do not see that, at all, to even the tiniest degree.

Show me the numbers, then I'll buy it.

His view is not well shared. People who review D&D for a living in general disagree with his view. D&D designers tend to disagree with his view. Most hardcore players disagree with his view. That doesn't mean he's necessarily wrong, but his view is not well shared is my point. Most people think Wizard is solid all the way through.

 

[Zardnaar]

His view is not well shared. People who review D&D for a living in general disagree with his view. D&D designers disagree with his view. Most hardcore players disagree with his view. That doesn't mean he's necessarily wrong, but his view is not well shared is my point. Most people think Wizard is solid all the way through.

Lots of people also dont actually play the gane or think level 13.

ENworlds basically come around to the idea D&D is really a 10 level game.

In real games the best classes are the ones that get the best stuff level 3-6 imho.

Is the wizard a beast later on? Absolutely. Youll probably never see it. D tier is 2 levels roughly.

 

[ECMO3]

Portent for example. Very powerful. Frequency only 2/day though and depends on dice rolls which drops it more.

Barbarian rage. Functionally every encounter. High frequency. Impact. A lot big tick. Value. Lots of damage always good. Synergy depends.

So I rate rage fairly high for example.

Bladesong beats Barbarian rage most of the time IMO.

 

[ECMO3]

4-6 times per day covers the majority of the adventuring most groups actually do.

You can't do it 6 times a day as a single class Wizard until quite a while after level 20. That requires a 22 Intelligence, which would mean 2 Epic Boons.

For most of tier 1 and tier 2 on point buy you will be at 3 or 4 uses on a point buy Wizard.

 

[TheSword]

No. It adds damage after level 5

You missed my follow up post

 

[ECMO3]

I feel like the best way to encapsulate the issue with "gish" design is to compare the Bladesinger to the Eldritch Knight.

The Eldritch Knight gets one-third of the spellcasting that a Wizard gets.
The Bladesinger gets better AC and a better Extra Attack in tier 2 than what other martials get.

I don't think this is accurate, at least not right out of the box.

Eldritch Knight gets a better extra attack than Bladesinger at every level except 6. Better at 5 and better at 7+. It is much better at level 11+ and this is amplified by the fact that EKs also get to use better weapons, get weapon mastery and at level 9+ get tactical master.

I would also not say the Bladesinger gets a better AC than an EK.

Below level 9 I would say they are comparable. An EK in plate with no shield is 18 or 19 which is 23-24 with the shield spell. A Bladesinger probably starts at 16 with mage armor and 19 in Bladesong (21 or 24 with shield spell) and this rises by 2 more through level 8. However the Bladesinger is limited to a one handed weapon and is not getting mastery. If we limit the EK like that he is probably wielding a shield and he is probably using sap and in this case his effective AC is going to be substantially higher than a Wizard.

Once an EK hits level 9 he can use sap with any weapon. At this point his effective AC will usually be better regardless of if he has a shield.

The Bladesingers compensation is spells. When you add in spells, especially upcast spells, and with the right feats. This means the Bladesinger can be a "top-tier" martial, but you need your feats and spells to lean into this if you really want it to work. A Bladesinger throwing out Fireball, Fear and Forcecage is not going to be a top tier martial, but one using those slots on False Life, Tasha's Otherworldly Guise and Sprit Shroud will be.

 

[Weiley31]

Dunno, I think it need the blade cantrips to really work, with them it is pretty decent.

Unless your DM is that much of a stickler, your Blade Cantrips are still backwards compatible.

 

[Zardnaar]

Bladesong beats Barbarian rage most of the time IMO.

At highervlevel year. Tier 1 not so much.

Note I dont rate Barbarian that highly later on (relative to Fighter/Paladn/Monk) and bladesingers is one of the better wizards along with illusionist.

 

[Zardnaar]

Unless your DM is that much of a stickler, your Blade Cantrips are still backwards compatible.

Casuals dont know about the blade cantrips and some even here on ENworld dont allow 5.0 stuff. Technically compatible but unbalanced.

 

[ECMO3]

Taking character level 1 in Fighter gives Constitution saving throw proficiency vs. Ranger giving Dexterity saving throw proficiency. That's why I would suggest that Fighter is a better choice for a level dip. Two-weapon fighting works well with Bladesinger, which is another reason for that 1st level in Fighter to get Two-Weapon Fighting Style, which you cannot get until level 2 in Ranger.

I think Wisdom proficiency is a lot more valuable than Constitution or Dexterity. This is especially true since a Bladesinger is probably dumping Wisdom (unless you are mutliclassing to Ranger).

I realize that Constitution is what is used for concentration checks, but those are usually easy saves, if you are concentrating you are probably not getting hit a lot anyhow and with Bladesong and Warcaster you have bonuses to those.

A failed wisdom save on the other hand will often incapacitate you and make you lose concentration anyway.

The main benefit of the single level dip in Ranger is to avoid any reduction in access to higher level spell slots. That does make sense too. Depends exactly where your Bladesinger build is focused: if spell focused, then single-classed Wizard is best to access those highest level spells; mixed but still spell oriented, then a single level dip in Paladin or Ranger; if melee focused, then a one or two level dip in Fighter (Action Surge is so good!).

Paladin is a really hard multiclass for a Bladesinger. On point buy you need to dump Constitution to do this effectively. There are builds out there - a Half Orc or Dwarf with Tough Feat comes to mind.