D&D 5E (2024) Thoughts on New Bladesinger?

[UngeheuerLich]

What's a worse cass than wizard at level 2?

No. Level 2 is not great. But they still have their ritual spells and spells known going for them.
Unseen servant, floating disc, detect magic, alarm, find familiar. All great spells.

The usual bad classes Rogue and Ranger are decent tier 1 if not good. All the martial classes are better than them. All the other spellcasers are better.
Your not going to have many rituals or cash in most games at level 2.

You have enough rituals for the life span of 2nd level for free.

Theyre the worst class imho hence D rating.

Whatever. I kniw your opinion. That does not mean all have to agree.

Its comparative.

And they are not way below anyone. They are very good at exploration. Just by having a familiar and rituals and a decent int skill.

Theyre not in D for long and by level 6 are probably B depending on subclass.

I know you rate things low that in many games are decent.

It depends on the campaign and DM how good rituals are and how accessible they are.

You can chose two rituals each level. You probably picked all spells you really need prepared at level 1 and some rituals (wizards get a quite high numbers of spells), so both level 2 spells are probably also rituals.

Same with number of spells.

They don't have to prepare rituals.

They dont get anymore spell slots except for arcane recovery and most of their class abilities revolve around spells.

Correct.

They run out faster than most classes

Incorrect. They can do as many rituals as they like.

who have wildshape, channel divinity, bard dice etc on top of spells.

Bard dice are 3 per long rest at that level. And you have to chose the target before they need them (reaction bardic inspiration did not survive the playtest).
They really don't last long.

Eventually they do over take the others.

Maybe. Maybe not.

Subclass depending thats usually around level 10 definitely by 13.

Maybe.

Bladesingers probably not that great until level 8 maybe if youre doing gish stuff.

Bladesinger gets AC and a bonus to concentration saves at level 3. In which world is that a lousy ability?

Assuming youre using spells to enhance the gish part.

Often other spells are better. Gish part is a fallback option. But yeah, you can use mirror image and blur and shield and be unhittable for a few rounds.

Level 7 you might run out of spells in 4 or 5 combats vs 2-3.

Often you only have 1 or 2 combats per day. Reality of many tables. So arcane recovery covers most short rests.

Bladesinger level 10 ability is mediocre iirc.

You remember wrong. Being able to shrug off large numbers of damage is situational but quite powerful.

Youre getting to the point where CME, spirit shroud, shadow blade or spirit guardians start getting good though.

You can't concentrate on all of that. But yeah, your one combat enhance will help you dish out good damage. This leaves your other spells to be burnt on damage reduction if needed.

ECMO3 covered how bad the bladesinger was at dealing damage mid levels earlier.

Not everyone has to do loads of damage with melee weapons. I will look into his calculation though. But going from experience, his assumptions are usually way off how we play the game.

They basically stink until level 6.

Yes. Because they basically have no damage enhancement ability until then. They are still full spellcasters. They should not be anywhere as good as dedicated fighters. Otherwise why should anyone play a fighter?

Blow all your spells on being a dancing fool sure knock yourself out.

Correct. So don't do that. Be a wizard. And only show off if stakes are not high or as a last ressort. Until then enjoy your extra protection from bladesong.

I like the class I wouldn't care to much about the gish part to level minimum 6 if not 8 or 9.

Good idea. But being able to power up if someone tries to hit or disrupt you is a nice feature.

Level 1-8 is also peak striker levels as well including Rogues and Rangers where theyre actually good.

Correct. Cool game. Rangers and rogues actually work.

Later on Paladins, Fighters, Monks are where its at.

Also nice.

You're also tripping over bonus actions (sing vs casting spirit shroud) to gain a 5th attack you need to MC or take two feats that dont boost intelligence.

Did I say you should do that? No. I did not. Yes, bonus actions are sometimes a little busy, but that is part of the balance.

Other spells like CME/spirit guardians take a round to cast but you might get 2-3 combats out of them.

Usually not.

 

[Zardnaar]

No. Level 2 is not great. But they still have their ritual spells and spells known going for them.

Unseen servant, floating disc, detect magic, alarm, find familiar. All great spells.

You have enough rituals for the life span of 2nd level for free.

Whatever. I kniw your opinion. That does not mean all have to agree.

And they are not way below anyone. They are very good at exploration. Just by having a familiar and rituals and a decent int skill.

I know you rate things low that in many games are decent.

You can chose two rituals each level. You probably picked all spells you really need prepared at level 1 and some rituals (wizards get a quite high numbers of spells), so both level 2 spells are probably also rituals.

They don't have to prepare rituals.

Correct.

Incorrect. They can do as many rituals as they like.

Bard dice are 3 per long rest at that level. And you have to chose the target before they need them (reaction bardic inspiration did not survive the playtest).
They really don't last long.


Maybe. Maybe not.

Maybe.


Bladesinger gets AC and a bonus to concentration saves at level 3. In which world is that a lousy ability?

Often other spells are better. Gish part is a fallback option. But yeah, you can use mirror image and blur and shield and be unhittable for a few rounds.

Often you only have 1 or 2 combats per day. Reality of many tables. So arcane recovery covers most short rests.

You remember wrong. Being able to shrug off large numbers of damage is situational but quite powerful.

You can't concentrate on all of that. But yeah, your one combat enhance will help you dish out good damage. This leaves your other spells to be burnt on damage reduction if needed.

Not everyone has to do loads of damage with melee weapons. I will look into his calculation though. But going from experience, his assumptions are usually way off how we play the game.

Yes. Because they basically have no damage enhancement ability until then. They are still full spellcasters. They should not be anywhere as good as dedicated fighters. Otherwise why should anyone play a fighter?

Correct. So don't do that. Be a wizard. And only show off if stakes are not high or as a last ressort. Until then enjoy your extra protection from bladesong.

Good idea. But being able to power up if someone tries to hit or disrupt you is a nice feature.

Correct. Cool game. Rangers and rogues actually work.

Also nice.

Did I say you should do that? No. I did not. Yes, bonus actions are sometimes a little busy, but that is part of the balance.

Usually not.

How god rituals are is also table. DM abd campaign dependent. Exploration is also the weakest pillar.

Unlimited comprehend languages, detect magic etc isnt going to fo that much lvl 1-2 in most campaigns. Find Familiar costs 10gp that actually matters level 1 and 2. Or DM shoots it.

You've admitted the wizards the weakest class in the game at those levels. If you do a tier list that's D tier, C at best if youre being generous.

Worst in game, best in gane 17 sure level 13 maybe (13 is where game falls apart anyway imho), 9 or 10 probably not but theyre getting there

 

[UngeheuerLich]

How god rituals are is also table. DM abd campaign dependent. Exploration is also the weakest pillar.

In your games. Not in ours.

Unlimited comprehend languages, detect magic etc isnt going to fo that much lvl 1-2 in most campaigns.

It is nice though.

Find Familiar costs 10gp that actually matters level 1 and 2.

You have enough starting gold as a wizard for that.

You've admitted the wizards the weakest class in the game at those levels.

You admitted that your games are just hack and slash.

If you do a tier list that's D tier, C at best if youre being generous.

Going by your list, every class is C, as they are all situationally useful.
Or Tiers are so close together, it does not matter at all.

Worst in game, best in gane 17 sure level 13 maybe (13 is where game falls apart anyway imho), 9 or 10 probably not but theyre getting there

I have seen warlocka struggle, because they only have 2 spells in combat that matter. Does not help them a lot that they can recharge with a short rest.

And with just 1 short rest, warlock and wizards both have exactly the same number of spells per day.

But yes, at level 2, it is the most unfavourable level for wizards. But they still are good enough.

 

[Zardnaar]

In your games. Not in ours.

It is nice though.

You have enough starting gold as a wizard for that.

You admitted that your games are just hack and slash.

Going by your list, every class is C, as they are all situationally useful.
Or Tiers are so close together, it does not matter at all.

I have seen warlocka struggle, because they only have 2 spells in combat that matter. Does not help them a lot that they can recharge with a short rest.

And with just 1 short rest, warlock and wizards both have exactly the same number of spells per day.

But yes, at level 2, it is the most unfavourable level for wizards. But they still are good enough.

My games are more than hack and slash. Its an easy focus to talk about though.

Your "not in my games" is exactly what im talking about. How good a wizard is really depends on the campaign and DM.

Fighters always good. Let's face it combats the most important pillar. Im probably better at exploration based games here than most as I've run enough of them from previous editions somewhat recently.

Next ones heavy exploration. Last one was heavy combat due to stress testing new rules and I wanted to see how useful the new monsters are.

You haven't seen me mentioning Netheril and Anauroch much lately? Wizards wet dream campaign.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

My games are more than hack and slash. Its an easy focus to talk about though.

Yeah. But that is not the only part of the game. Just looking at that part does not do the wizard justice.

Your "not in my games" is exactly what im talking about. How good a wizard is really depends on the campaign and DM.

As every other class.

Fighters always good.

Not if arcane investigation is the task.

Let's face it combats the most important pillar.

It is one pillar. Doing exploration and social tasks well might allow you to not do combat or combat under a lot better circumstances.
An alarm spell or a familiar for instance might help you not being surprised.

Im probably better at exploration based games here than most as I've run enough of them from previous editions somewhat recently.

Nice to hear that. And still you struggle to understand how wizards work.

Next ones heavy exploration.

Maybe you learn.

Last one was heavy combat due to stress testing new rules and I wanted to see how useful the new monsters are.

Ok. A very narrow focus.

You haven't seen me mentioning Netheril and Anauroch much lately? Wizards wet dream campaign.

I have to look isnto that. I am currently quite busy.

 

[Maxperson]

• And when you Action Surge, I presume you cannot cast Booming Blade again, but that gives you 3 attacks, for an additional +58.5 damage if all attacks hit, no critical hits.

Booming blade lasts for the entire round. It would still be on when you Action Surge.

 

[ECMO3]

That’s an every other turn solution, right? You draw the weapon on turn 1. So you can’t stow it after the attack. Then next turn after the attack you can’t stow stow it. Repeat the process. Or am I mistaken on how weapon drawing/stowing works?

No you can draw or stow a weapon with every attack you take with the attack action.

Here is the text: Equipping and Unequipping Weapons. You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action.

So you have your "offhand" weapon in hand. Let's say it is a Club as your "offhand" weapon and a Shorsword as your "main" weapon (I know the term offhand is meaningless in 5e):

Then you take the attack action - 1st attack:equip Shortsword-Truestrike Shortsword, 2nd attack: attack Shortsword-unequip Shortsword. Bonus action: attack with a Club already in your other hand.

 

[ECMO3]

ECMO3 covered how bad the bladesinger was at dealing damage mid levels earlier. They basically stink until level 6. Blow all your spells on being a dancing fool sure knock yourself out.

I didn't really say it was bad at dealing damage, I said if you want to be competitive with a Fighter in terms of being a top tier martial you need to use your Feats and Spells for this purpose.

You can do this though and if you do it you will be a very good martial, perhaps not quite as much damage as a DPR Fighter at most levels, especially in short-duration fights, but you will be more durable at most levels if you go all out this way and can be rougly as good a martial overall IMO.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't think they are half as good at melee. Even in the level 3-10 range.

That depends on how you define good. I made a Bladesinger that I determined would be a high elf before rolling stats. I ended up after racial bonuses with a 17 int and a 20 dex. With Bladesong and a rapier, I was swinging at +7 to hit for 1d8+5 damage, and I had an AC of 20 with my studded leather on. Plus I had Shield sitting around just in case I did get hit. I was better than the fighter in the group because he would get hit.

At level 6 when I got my extra attack and could cast a cantrip and attack with the sword, I still didn't do quite as much damage as the fighter, but I had a hell of a lot more longevity in a fight and could just wade through enemies without worrying to much about opportunity attacks. The party also let me have the Cloak of Displacement we found at around level 6 or 7... ...and it took giants or more who got lucky or somehow gained advantage to negate the disadvantage in order to have a chance of hitting me.

 

[Maxperson]

To make your weapon a focus, you want Ruby of the Warmage, which is a common magic item in D&D 2024, so it should be accessible and cheap at low levels. The hassle is that it costs an attunement slot.

That depends on if the DM allows you to buy magic items and if so, how they are determined to be for sale.