D&D (2024) Thoughts on Stealth and D&D2024

[Selas]

Find = use an action to search according to the rules shown in the early hiding threads. No action to find, no findy.

Search is really a player-facing combat action specific for conducting an Active Perception check, but the Hide rules only say to do a Perception check, and the DM can use Passive Perception instead to speed up combat. However, outside of combat the DM can just call for a PC to do a Perception check per the DMG. A DM can just roll Perception when a PC tries to sneak by an enemy against the PC's Hide roll result

 

[Maxperson]

Search is really a player-facing combat action specific for conducting an Active Perception check, but the Hide rules only say to do a Perception check, and the DM can use Passive Perception instead to speed up combat. However, outside of combat the DM can just call for a PC to do a Perception check per the DMG. A DM can just roll Perception when a PC tries to sneak by an enemy against the PC's Hide roll result

I remember "find" being specified as to how it works in the other thread, but not the exact wording. It was something actively done, not passive or DM side asked for.

I don't own the 5.5e books to look, though.

 

[Imaro]

If having line of sight to you is sufficient to see you, then the invisible condition’s only effect is to give you advantage on initiative.

No... it has 3 effects... Advantage on the initiative roll, not being affected by any effect that requires the target to be seen, and Advantage on your attacks and Disadvantage on attacks against you. What you're conflating is what happens when you are detected and loose the Invisible condition vs. what the Invisible condition actually does.

 

[Imaro]

The concealed effect does nothing against enemies that can somehow see you. If we assume that enemies need special vision to see you, then being in an enemy’s line of sight when you have the condition must not be sufficient for the enemy to find you. Otherwise the condition is, in fact, useless

No the condition is not useless...as long as I hide and then stay out of the line of sight of the enemy.

And why would we assume that some type of special vision is needed?

 

[Selas]

I remember "find" being specified as to how it works in the other thread, but not the exact wording. It was something actively done, not passive or DM side asked for.

I don't own the 5.5e books to look, though.

This is what Hide says:

On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.

As for Search, here is what it says:

Search [Action]​

When you take the Search action, you make a Wisdom check to discern something that isn’t obvious. The Search table suggests which skills are applicable when you take this action, depending on what you’re trying to detect.

Skill	Thing to Detect
Insight	Creature’s state of mind
Medicine	Creature’s ailment or cause of death
Perception	Concealed creature or object
Survival	Tracks or food

Search​

You're still taking the Search action outside combat, but there is no action economy to affect you in a non-combat scenario

 

[Selas]

No the condition is not useless...as long as I hide and then stay out of the line of sight of the enemy.

And why would we assume that some type of special vision is needed?

You only need a special sense to break the Invisible condition from the Invisibility spell, not for the Hide action. I assume the other poster just cannot or refuses to separate the two

Technically, Tremorsense can break through the Invisible condition from Hide due to how it works, but this is more of a DM's call

 

[Charlaquin]

No... it has 3 effects... Advantage on the initiative roll, not being affected by any effect that requires the target to be seen, and Advantage on your attacks and Disadvantage on attacks against you.

Right, but the latter two of these don’t do anything if the opponent can see you, which the invisibility spell does not say it prevents, and the hide action doesn’t say it allows. So either the condition does make you impossible to see, in which case entering an enemy’s line of sight would not cause them to find you, or the condition does not make you impossible to see, in which case those two effects are just non-functional.

What you're conflating is what happens when you are detected and loose the Invisible condition vs. what the Invisible condition actually does.

No, I’m saying that since neither of the sources specify whether or not you can be seen while you have the condition, we must assume your level of visibility is determined by the condition itself. And in that case, one of the two sources of the condition doesn’t function as we intuitively expect it to. If the condition itself makes you impossible to see, Hide breaks. If it doesn’t, the spell breaks.

 

[Charlaquin]

You only need a special sense to break the Invisible condition from the Invisibility spell, not for the Hide action.

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

 

[Epic Meepo]

Need more information... why does the room full of creatures lack line of sight?

I was curious to hear if anyone could find a general rule above and beyond "roll a binary skill check." If you want a specific scenario, I suppose we could say my PC is walking behind an opaque curtain, and every other creature in the room is on the other side of the curtain.

Well, you can certainly try. Roll a d20 reql quick.

If "make a binary skill check" is really is the only rule the 2024 rules offer for determining whether or not a character can bypass an encounter using Stealth, then there seem to be a lot of words wasted on Hide actions and Invisibility conditions that don't matter all that much.

 

[Imaro]

Right, but the latter two of these don’t do anything if the opponent can see you, which the invisibility spell does not say it prevents, and the hide action doesn’t say it allows. So either the condition does make you impossible to see, in which case entering an enemy’s line of sight would not cause them to find you, or the condition does not make you impossible to see, in which case those two effects are just non-functional.

So let me address these separately....

HIDE: You cannot hide if an opponent can see you, so you are starting from a position of your opponent(s) not being able to see you... otherwise you cannot take the Hide action. As long as said opponents cannot see you you gain all of the effects of the Invisible condition... thus you should be taking advantage of terrain, avoiding being in direct line of sight and honestly using missile weapons near areas where you can easily position to hide again or from obscurement in order to maintain this.

Spell: The invisibility spell gives you all of the advantages of the Invisible condition unless...
1. The spell's duration ends
2. The target makes an attack roll, deals damage, or casts a spell
3. A specific counter to the spell is used.

NOTE: These are the only ways, regardless of what the Invisible condition states that someone using the spell can loose the condition.

As long as you have the Invisible condition you are concealed and thus you cannot be affected by any effect that requires it's target to be seen (including locating you, though smell, sound and other forms of perception might work). This right here is your transparency, always look in another direction or just don't notice him/her mystical invisibility... You can't be seen