D&D (2024) Thoughts on Stealth and D&D2024

[Imaro]

Also... you can describe the invisibility spell working however you want but mechanically it gives you the Invisible condition which can only be negated in the specific ways you counter or end the spell.. its pretty simple design when you accept it for what it is vs. Preconceived notions.

 

[Selas]

Ok, so essentially you’ve arrived at this conclusion based on your intuition of how it should work based on what is happening in the fiction. I agree with this intuition. My specific complaint is that I don’t believe the actual text produces this intuitive result.

No, this is not the problem. I am perfectly happy to accept the possibility that the invisible condition itself does not make you transparent. The problem is that, under this interpretation, the Invisibility spell also doesn’t make you transparent, since the text of the spell doesn’t say it does that.

That’s a perfectly reasonable interpretation. But under this interpretation, we look to the invisibility spell in conjunction with the condition to see what it does, and we find… the spell just gives you the condition, and some circumstances under which the condition can end. It does not say you can’t be seen with normal vision while you have the condition. So if the condition doesn’t, itself, make you impossible to see, then neither does the spell.

I edited my previous response, but I'll reiterate:

if you're doing a stealth check--defined in the rules as moving quietly and hiding behind things--then that means that you can be SEEN by normal sight.
You don't roll for stealth with the invisibility spell, so that tells me magic is making you "Invisible" from other's normal senses, including sight. There is no perception check (using your normal senses), no DC to beat...nada, so you can't use normal sight to see them

The spell says only three things break the Invisible condition under normal circumstances:

• cast a spell
• deal damage
• make an attack roll

Meaning, as long as I don't do any of those three, I have the condition and cannot be targeted by effects that require sight (normal sight)

 

[Charlaquin]

The condition doesnt... but it does matter because the condition gives the effects that one gains from having it....

If i hide (stealth check of 20) and gain the Invisible condition with a longbow in underbrush 70ft away from my target then shoot at him with advantage (from the Invisible condition) how is that not an advantage?

Is the underbrush granting 3/4 cover, full cover, or heavy obscuration? In the first case, that is advantage. Though, the +5 AC your target has due to the cover would likely be a bigger drawback than the advantage. In the second case, you can’t target the creature because it has full cover from you. In the last case, the advantage from being hidden is canceled out by the disadvantage from being blinded.

If i hide (stealth check of 20) and gain the Invisible condition with a longbow in underbrush 70ft away from my target but then step out of the underbrush and he has line of sight to me... I don't gain advantage on my attack.

I agree.

If i hide (stealth check of 20) and gain the Invisible condition with a longbow in underbrush 70ft away from my target but want to follow him to see where he goes... I have to maintain staying out of his line of sight to stay concealed( so I'm not seen) from the Invisible condition by staying out of the targets line of sight. Later when I do engage said target (as long as I have maintained my Invisible condition) I get advantage on initiative.

I agree.

So yes it does provide advantages and yes it must be maintained by not being seen... moving into your enemy's line of sight.

Ok, but what about the invisible condition granted by the invisibility spell?

Except being found/seeing you ends the condition unless a specific rule overrides it... i.e. the invisibility spell conditions for ending the spell giving you the condition.

But when you have the condition due to the spell, the target can still see you while you’re in its line of sight.

Huh? How did you get that from what I posted... I was speaking to invisibility the spell and its specific interactions with the condition.

I must have misunderstood what you were saying. My apologies.

 

[kayakingpoodle]

The spell is just that a spell it is cast, and has no other requirements to work. It works until time runs out, or something is done to break it. You can literally vanish in site of the enemy.

Hide requires you to be out of sight and roll a stealth check. Which is the DC for the perception check while you're hidden (shadows, cover....) you are not hidden if you are in their line of sight. Hiding is not the spell, it just provides the same effect until you are seen. You can't move in the open where they are looking while hiding. You can with the spell. Apples and oranges, other that both provide a similar effect. The big difference being while hidden you're essentially invisible until the spell ends or are seen, while with the spell you are invisible until the spell ends.

If your hiding and the enemy doesn't see or find you, then there is little difference between the 2, if you get caught hiding the gig is up. With the spell you are just invisible so you can't be caught.
This is ignoring things like blind/tremor sight et al.

 

[Charlaquin]

Also... you can describe the invisibility spell working however you want but mechanically it gives you the Invisible condition which can only be negated in the specific ways you counter or end the spell.. its pretty simple design when you accept it for what it is vs. Preconceived notions.

Alright, you know what? Let’s remove all the preconceived notions. Allow me to present a new homebrew spell: abracadabra.

Abracadabra
level 2 - illusion
Casting Time: Action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (an eyelash in gum arabic)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour
A creature you touch has the Purple condition until the spell ends. The spell ends early immediately after the target makes an attack roll, deals damage, or casts a spell.
Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. You can target one additional creature for each spell slot level above 2.

And, the accompanying homebrew condition, Purple:

Purple
While you have the Purple condition, you experience the following effects.

Surprise. If you’re Purple when you roll Initiative, you have Advantage on the roll.

Concealed. You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed.

Attacks Affected. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, you don’t gain this benefit against that creature.

Now, can you (or @Parmandur or @Selas or whoever else would like to weigh in) tell me, if my character, Charlie, casts the abracadabra spell on herself while standing within the line of sight of a Goblin Warrior with no source of cover or obscuration, can the Goblin Warrior attack her, and if it does, does it have disadvantage on that attack? If Charlie attacks the Goblin Warrior while she has the Purple condition, does she have advantage on her attack? Can Charlie’s Bard ally target her with the enlarge/reduce spell (which I double checked, does require you to be able to see the target) while she has the Purple condition? However you answer these questions, I would appreciate you explaining how you arrived at those answers, based on the text of my homebrew spell and condition.

 

[Imaro]

Is the underbrush granting 3/4 cover, full cover, or heavy obscuration? In the first case, that is advantage. Though, the +5 AC your target has due to the cover would likely be a bigger drawback than the advantage. In the second case, you can’t target the creature because it has full cover from you. In the last case, the advantage from being hidden is canceled out by the disadvantage from being blinded.

Just wanted to note a correction here since I don't have time for a full reply until tomorrow... but nothing states being in an area of heavy obscuration gives you disadvantage... however trying to see something in the heavily obscured area (as your target would be trying to do) does Impose disadvantage.

 

[Selas]

But when you have the condition due to the spell, the target can still see you while you’re in its line of sight.

Only if the target has a sense that allows them to see through the Invisible condition. Normal sight is not defined in the rules, so it follows the natural language definition...meaning it can't see someone with the condition granted by the spell since the rules don't state it can

 

[Charlaquin]

Only if the target has a sense that allows them to see through the Invisible condition. Normal sight is not defined in the rules, so it follows the natural language definition...meaning it can't see someone with the condition granted by the spell since the rules don't state it can

Ok. So why can a creature without such senses see through the Invisible condition gained by the Hide action?

 

[kayakingpoodle]

Hiding is a condition that makes you "invisible" unless you get caught hiding, or you break it.

The invisible spell makes you invisible (a condition that is similar to hidden, but different) until the spell ends or you break it.

 

[kayakingpoodle]

Hiding is essentially hide and seek, as long as no one sees you you are invisible until you are found.

The invisibility spell actually makes you invisible.

Outside of that the are pretty much the same.