Thoughts on Tiers

[MerricB]

At present, I have the unusual experience in being involved in three campaigns, one at each tier. I'm playing in the Heroic tier campaign (just hit 6th level), and I'm DMing the Paragon tier campaign (at 15th level) and the Epic tier campaign (just hit 26th level). All three campaigns have been played from 1st level, so the PCs have all developed in play through the tiers.

I've seen some discussion recently about 4E being all the same from tier to tier. This doesn't match my experience: there are some fundamental differences which have made the tiers feel and play differently.

The Heroic Tier is where you learn the craft of being an adventurer. By far the most significant difference with it from the later tiers is that from 1st to 10th level you're adding more options in combat. (This is less true of the Essentials martial classes, but it's still there). The capabilities of your character undergo a bigger expansion than what occurs later - the difference between a 1st level character who is basically down to spamming at-wills for most of a combat and a 10th level character who has a much greater range of encounter powers is significant in play.

The Paragon Tier brings in the Paragon Paths, and it's a little feature of the Paragon Paths that really defines the difference between Heroic and Paragon: the rider to what Action Points achieve.

It's amazing how something that seems so small has a major effect on the feeling of the tier, but it does, even with a player normally only able to use one AP/two encounters. There are other factors that make the Paragon Tier feel different from Heroic, but that's the main one that we noticed mechanically.

Epic Tier doesn't quite have the same point of difference. I was going to say "Criticals on 19-20" - which is quite significant - but it's a bonus that is inconsistently applied, and some characters can't get it at all (and others get it much earlier). The "When you die..." epic power doesn't really come up enough in the campaign, although it does point to "death not being an issue" which is probably the hallmark of Epic play.

I'll need to discuss Epic play with my players more to see what differences they see between it and Paragon.

What do you think?

Cheers!

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

The change from paragon to epic isn't really that impressive, honestly.

You get one or two features from your epic destiny, but they're either extra stat bonuses or some random ability. It's certainly not as memorable as the couple of things you get for the paragon path.

All the cool things with the epic destiny show up later, at 24, 26, and 30.

The biggest thing is access to epic feats, honestly.

Brad

 

[Vael]

I'm jealous that your epic campaign comes from PCs that have leveled all the way. My own epic experiences have been less organic. I DMed a short campaign at level 21, and I just started a PC in another which may or may not continue. Epic frustrates me. As a DM, this was pre-MM3, my monsters felt toothless, especially when you have bizarre builds, like a Daggermaster Bard that had taken every darn striker multiclass feat ever, and could one-shot most monsters and a minion-popping Archlich. I'm seeing the same thing on the player side. My Swordmage isn't a damage dealer, but two stun powers and a bunch of nasty interrupts make the DM's job hard and most of the other PCs are also well built for combat.

This, to me, is why Epic really doesn't get much play. It's not a tier to just jump into. But leveling up to the tier takes time and I've been playing 4e since it's release, and I've got a bunch of abandoned campaigns in my past.

 

[Dragon Sin-Camealot]

There's redundant plots/characters in DnD. I heard it's all well-known. If that's the case it's up to us to get creative. My campaign was unique.

The second battle had no minions because I think it slows the game down. I replaced them all with another HP monster.

I'm sure that idea is typical to some. But there's others I want to try.

 

[Riastlin]

My home campaign is about halfway through 13th level at the moment so I'm getting to see the early stages of paragon and the PCs all started at level 1 (except for the late arrivals to the group). I have also played quite a bit at heroic, but to date, have no experience with epic, so I'll limit this to just heroic vs. paragon.

The main thing that I've noticed as the DM in the paragon game is that the PCs have a far higher degree of a) survivability and b) kick-arsedness. The paladin, on a single turn, was able to bring the avenger from unconscious to about 3/4 HP and then attack the big bad monster (as an example). Simply put, the party just has far more options at the moment, from interrupts to reactions, to action points, to magic items.

While this can be frustrating as a DM, its also somewhat liberating. Its given me the freedom to push harder and take bigger risks with my encounter designs. Even without a true leader in the group (the paladin is pretty much the only source of healing though he did take a lot of healing powers), the party just has a ton of tricks up their sleeves. For me, its fun because I can get away with so much more than I could before. In heroic tier, if I tried some of the things I've been doing in paragon, I'd have a tpk on my hands in a heartbeat. Now, nobody dies (or even really comes close -- the ranger who went off to explore the enemy occupied tower by herself excepted of course). I do though actually shudder to think what a pacifist cleric would do to this group.

I do have to say though that part of this is no doubt due in part to the party getting better with each session at working together. They've had close to two years now running together so they tend to know what they'll do most of the time. All in all, I really like the transition. To me, the two tiers definitely feel different -- if not necessarily unique. I think any redundancy would be at least in part a problem of the DM. In fact, I think one of 4ed's greatest strengths (the ease of making encounters) is also a weakness. Sure, its easy to whip up a quick encounter now, but doing it quickly will likely result in a feeling of sameness.

 

[S'mon]

It sounds like people find the Heroic to Paragon transition meaningful and satisfying, but Paragon to Epic much less so. This tallies with some discussion on Epic eg over here - the consensus generally being that 4e doesn't get Epic quite right, it's a mix of extended-Paragon (fighting once-ordinary-high-level monsters like Balors & Pit Fiends, toppling mortal tyrants) and genuinely Epic (killing Tiamat, ending Greed in the world).

WoTC doesn't seem to have known whether they were spreading out 3e's 20 core levels to 30, or bringing the 3e Epic Level Handbook into core 4e.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

I really don't see where tiers are actually necessary. You could remove the three names of the tiers and everything is still the same.

 

[Prism]

I'm liking the diferent feel with paragon tier a lot. The action point usage certainly defines the character. My character goes invisible and can't be hit (defensive), the wizard teleports anywhere he wants (mobility) and the rogue basically nova's and can't miss (attack). When we use an AP the battle changes. In heroic, it barely does. We also blow low level rituals on pretty everything from travel, detection to crafting.

Although we are only just entering epic, to me its more about the feats than the destiny at least for the first half, and there about continual effects rather than AP or daily options. Being able to shift 2 at will, sneak attack the whole battlefield with one attack, gain almost permanent DR, always react first, ignore all resistances, manipulating your area spells to leave holes around your allies. These for me are far more epic than most of the destiny features.

Having said that its the plot the will truely define it

 

[D'karr]

I really don't see where tiers are actually necessary. You could remove the three names of the tiers and everything is still the same.

Riiiiiight...

Sorry but this sounds like the same tired argument you keep making, that is not truly supported by the play experience.

Paragon, does play and feel different than Heroic. Epic might be the only one that needs tweaking, as it feels like an extended Paragon. But even then it is very different, in play, than Heroic.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Riiiiiight...

Sorry but this sounds like the same tired argument you keep making, that is not truly supported by the play experience.

Paragon, does play and feel different than Heroic. Epic might be the only one that needs tweaking, as it feels like an extended Paragon. But even then it is very different, in play, than Heroic.

That's a personal opinion and it's one that I do not share. To me, it just feels like a continuation.