Thoughts on Tiers

[D'karr]

That's a personal opinion and it's one that I do not share. To me, it just feels like a continuation.

That's a personal opinion and it's one that I do not share. To me, it just doesn't feel like a continuation. Tiers feel different.

See, anyone can do that. You had a personal opinion, I had a personal opinion, everyone in this thread is presenting a personal opinion. Unless they are actually presenting facts like what the books say about each tier and what should go there. So yeah, you got me there.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

for me it was a big change for paragon to epic...it was the feats and magic items... mostly becuse that extra item use per day made it feel like there are almost like there was no limit...


now when we do rareity and no limits we have not hit epic yet...

 

[Saagael]

As a DM who's players are at level 20, have been playing since level 1 (late-starters not withstanding), and will soon be getting to level epic tier, I enjoy these threads and comments. So far, I'm thinking that a lot of the shift from heroic to paragon to epic really depends on how the DM plays it.

Paragon tier for me meant that the players could now explore the wider world and could get into all sorts of trouble without me actually having to feed them quests. They could pick and choose what they wanted to do, and where they wanted to go.

Epic, from what I see, is a reversal back to heroic tier-style story-telling, where the players should give up some of the liberties of player choice so that the DM can really focus on the story and the progression towards the ultimate goal of the PCs, and not worry so much about the players derailing what's going on. Of course that won't work for everyone, but that's how I'm playing epic tier.

That's why epic tier is so hard to play: it relies on characters' stories and backgrounds more than any other tier, almost detrimentally. Sure you can run one-shot epic adventures, but to get to the meat of epic tier play, you need to have a developed story, characters, cast of NPCs and a villain with which you use to create the climax of your campaign.

That said, I think the best way to get epic tier to shine, story-wise, is to have everything the players are fighting for, get progressively worse right up until level 21. Level 21 is where the players can start doing stuff about all those things that went wrong before. That really makes epic tier stand out.

 

[Riastlin]

So far, I'm thinking that a lot of the shift from heroic to paragon to epic really depends on how the DM plays it.

Excellent point! Its certainly possible to run pretty much the exact same encounter 300 times and thus cover all 30 levels of play. In fact, you could probably plan out the entire campaign, complete with encounters, etc. in about a day, with all your monsters printed out and ready to go. Treasure parcels selected, etc.

Of course, odds are this will be a terrible campaign and incredibly boring because the DM has taken the path of least resistance and not put any thought into it. If you actually try to make it interesting though, and particularly if you play it up from level 1, you will eventually see that there is far more you can do as the party progresses into paragon than you could before. Heck, even just planning adventures with ritual use in mind is a big difference. In my experience, the players are a lot more likely to use rituals in paragon tier because a) the rituals get better and b) they have more gold.

The key point here is that there is simply far more that the DM can do in creating the adventures in Paragon (and presumably epic though as I said I haven't played it yet) than is feasible in heroic tier. The DM doesn't have to take advantage of those opportunities of course, but they are there.Did they "have" to give them different names? No, but is there a difference? Yes.

 

[Saagael]

Heck, even just planning adventures with ritual use in mind is a big difference. In my experience, the players are a lot more likely to use rituals in paragon tier because a) the rituals get better and b) they have more gold.

I found this out through experience in early paragon tier. Players didn't use rituals until I made them almost necessary to complete the campaign goals in any reasonable amount of time or efficiency. Though to keep resource tracking and micro-managing to a minimum, I usually give players them magic items that have ritual-like-powers on them that don't cost gold. This really brought a lot more of the "fantastical" feeling to paragon (and hopefully epic) tier since it opened a lot of options to the players.

So perhaps a key to good high-level play is opening up a lot of player options that are normally kind of hard or finicky to use. Rituals is all I can think of now, but I'm sure there is more.

 

[Aenghus]

I think campaigns become more individual as they move between tiers. Heroic tier is the one most people have lots of experience of - most campaigns start and end in this tier IMO.

The essence of getting players to feel the difference between tiers is in their interactions with NPCs and the world outside the dungeon. NPCs in particular can give the PCs a feeling their status has changed more than just in level - a powerful patron at heroic level can become a trusted peer at paragon and then a valued local contact at epic. How existing and new NPCs treat them over time should change based on their accomplishments and level.

The nature of the threats the PCs deal with at each tier need to vary qualitatively and quantatively.

Some paragon locations need to be exotic and evocative, epic locations even more so.

Long running campaigns tend to accumulate hanging plot hooks, so players assemble long to-do lists as time goes on. I like this, and in my current campaign, approaching epic, I'm considering mixing up the long adventure modules with lots of short adventures which address their personal to-do lists.

 

[D'karr]

Long running campaigns tend to accumulate hanging plot hooks, so players assemble long to-do lists as time goes on. I like this, and in my current campaign, approaching epic, I'm considering mixing up the long adventure modules with lots of short adventures which address their personal to-do lists.

Great approach. This is a great way to keep the campaign relevant to the players.

 

[Raikun]

Yeah, I think it's sorta possible for all 3 tiers to feel like one continuation (not counting the significant mechanical power jumps), but really, if you have players (and particularly DM) with any kind of imagination and storytelling ability, the 3 tiers are quite significantly different in feel and style.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I talked to my players last night and one brought this up...


when you get your 11th level pp you get 2-3 features and a free encounter
when you go to 12 you get a utllity...at 16 a feature and at 2o a daily


now compair to eds...

at 21 you get a feature or stat ups...and most people say stat ups are better
at 24 you get a feature that most likly reads "Once per day when you die"
at 26 you get a utility
at 30th you get a cap stone abiliry...


notice when you become a mage of the spiral tower it is a big change, and very noticable...

Corellon’s Implement (11th level): Choose an arcane implement that you specialize in, whether the wand, staff, or orb. You can use a longsword as if it were that type of arcane implement when casting your spells.
Spiral Tower Action (11th level): You can spend an action point to regain one wizard encounter power you have already used, instead of taking an extra action.

The One Sword
Your blade flashes with the twilight power of the Feywild as you strike your foe.

Encounter Arcane, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon

Target: One creature

Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex

Hit: 2[W] + Intelligence modifier damage. Make a secondary attack against the target.

Secondary Attack: Intelligence vs. Will

Hit: The target is dazed until the end of your next turn, and this power is not expended.

you get 3 cool new toys... one useable with avtion points, one almost at will...and one all the time

compair that to +2 to any two stats...


why is the wizard school cooler then demi god?? at least at first...




I wonder if we front loaded epic destiny's more, if that would make a diffrenct...

what if all epic destnys followed this pattern instead:
at 21 you get 2-3 features
at 24 you get a feature that most likly reads "Once per day when you die"
at 26 you get a utility
at 30th you get a cap stone abiliry...

 

[Saagael]

I wonder if we front loaded epic destiny's more, if that would make a diffrenct...

You're trying to make epic tier feel more like paragon tier, when it shouldn't. Paragon tier is front-loaded because the jump in complexity from level 10 to 11 isn't crazy. The complexity jump from level 20 to 21 can be pretty darn insane, when you include how much stuff the players already have.

That, and paragon tier, to me, isn't so much about getting to level 21. Epic Tier, however, is all about getting to level 30 and finally getting your capstone feature and taking on the biggest baddies around. With that in mind, of course the best stuff would be towards the end of the tier. Not to mention all the badass powers and feats that become available at level 21 and above.

With as many fiddly bits the players already have to manage at level 21, tacking on 2 or 3 extra abilities will mean something gets lost in the shuffle. Even the best players are likely to forget all the details.