Scorpio616
First Post
No, I'd say it is a biggie and the player screwed up, not Greenfield.
Definitely justifies a redo.
Thoughts on Warlock Invocation - Eldritch Glaive
Definitely justifies a redo.
Greenfield
Adventurer
I think the screw up was a team effort.
As far as redo's are concerned: That's pretty much an auto-kill on the PC. He has zero chance of survival.
The Dragon grabbed him, then dove into a lake. His movement in the water is faster than anyone can pursue. The Petal will simply drown.
The drowning/suffocation rules in D&D are pretty generous to PCs most of the time. You can go for one round per CON point without an issue. After that you start making CON checks each round. The DC starts at 10 and goes up one per round.
IRL a person who can function, while working/fighting vigorously, for a full minute is rare.
But none of this applies if the character isn't holding his breath. As in, he didn't realize that he's about to be pulled into the water. I specifically listened for the player to say something about it. The character was talking while being pulled in. No lung full of air.
That means CON checks start at once.
The Petal can try his D-Door invocation. It's arguable whether it has a somatic component, since the description says it works exactly like Dimension Door, which is verbal only.
To pull it off, while grappled, he needs a Concentration check. The base DC is 20, because he's grappled, plus the Invocation's equivalent spell level (4), plus the damage he's taking from the grapple.
BTW: I was counting Strength of the Dragon. He needed a 32, and was +17 on the check, so he needed 15 on the dice. Didn't make it.
And once he's opened his mouth and spoken while trying not to breath in water, he's pretty much done. Any air he had left in his lungs is now gone. No way to try again.
In any case a do-over isn't in the cards. We pass the DM hat around the table, and I've handed it off to the next guy. It's no longer my call to make.
If it was, I probably wouldn't. Like I said, it's bad form. If I did want to address it, I'd offer the player the choice of a do-over.
Alternately, I'd just announce an alternative ending, one where the Petal escapes (miraculously), and the Dragon lives to fight another day.
As far as redo's are concerned: That's pretty much an auto-kill on the PC. He has zero chance of survival.
The Dragon grabbed him, then dove into a lake. His movement in the water is faster than anyone can pursue. The Petal will simply drown.
The drowning/suffocation rules in D&D are pretty generous to PCs most of the time. You can go for one round per CON point without an issue. After that you start making CON checks each round. The DC starts at 10 and goes up one per round.
IRL a person who can function, while working/fighting vigorously, for a full minute is rare.
But none of this applies if the character isn't holding his breath. As in, he didn't realize that he's about to be pulled into the water. I specifically listened for the player to say something about it. The character was talking while being pulled in. No lung full of air.
That means CON checks start at once.
The Petal can try his D-Door invocation. It's arguable whether it has a somatic component, since the description says it works exactly like Dimension Door, which is verbal only.
To pull it off, while grappled, he needs a Concentration check. The base DC is 20, because he's grappled, plus the Invocation's equivalent spell level (4), plus the damage he's taking from the grapple.
BTW: I was counting Strength of the Dragon. He needed a 32, and was +17 on the check, so he needed 15 on the dice. Didn't make it.
And once he's opened his mouth and spoken while trying not to breath in water, he's pretty much done. Any air he had left in his lungs is now gone. No way to try again.
In any case a do-over isn't in the cards. We pass the DM hat around the table, and I've handed it off to the next guy. It's no longer my call to make.
If it was, I probably wouldn't. Like I said, it's bad form. If I did want to address it, I'd offer the player the choice of a do-over.
Alternately, I'd just announce an alternative ending, one where the Petal escapes (miraculously), and the Dragon lives to fight another day.
Empirate
First Post
Redos are exceedingly tiresome, and may well provide no clearer or overall more satisfying result. And no, it's not a biggie. If PCs fight a monster, here's what's usually happening, where the metagame is concerend: the PCs are expected to win, so the monster ought to end up dead whatever happens.
Sure, there are certain scenarios that make this outcome unlikely or unwelcome, but from what Greenfield has told us, this was just a straight-up fight, with no specifically planned plot impact.
So what happened here? The PCs fought a dragon, and killed it. As can be expected from the heroes of the land. See? No biggie. Sure, there was supposed to be an element of danger involved, and the group's interpretation of certain rules (invocations in general, Eldritch Glaive in particular, dragons' natural attacks etc.) nullified that to a large degree. So this one combat was way easier than it could have been. But that kind of thing happens all the time.
Just be sure to move on and correct those mistakes, and you're good.
Greenfield
Adventurer
Mistakes happen.
Intentional cheating shouldn't.
Intentional cheating shouldn't.
Scorpio616
First Post
PCs might have the odds on their side, but that is supposed to be, odds. The odds were compromised so the encounter should be done over. Challenge is supposed to be part of the game, victories should have to be won, not handed out.
What has plot to do with odds? Just because it makes a better story for the PCs to win to some people, doesn't suddenly let the PCs do things they can't normally do.
Greenfield
Adventurer
The PCs were going up against a higher level opponent who had nearly beaten them to death in their first encounter.
In their second encounter, they returned the favor.
This was to be round 3, and they didn't find the caster, just the Dragon he rode. The caster had fled, being badly injured. The dragon had been reluctant to abandon his treasure hoard, so he offered to barter with the party.
Party said no, and the fight was on. They actually expected to win this one rather handily, and in fact put 237 points of damage on the Dragon in the first round. Time for him to go, and he knew it.
He siezed the Petal as he left, planning on drowning it on the way. Plus, of course, it had neat magic, which would be the start of a new treasure hoard.
The Petal's player had boasted at how non-fragile the character was, so he was just asking for it. And I mean that in the literal sense.
Maybe he overestimated his capability, figuring that he could use an Invocation to do a short range D-Door if he got in trouble. I don't think he saw the grab-and-go coming.
When it happened, he..., well "cheated" is such a strong term... He made a rules mistake that was insanely in his favor, and that strained the credulity of everyone at the table. Okay, who am I kidding, he cheated.
But whether it was an honest mistake or a dishonest ploy, whether they expected to win or expected to lose, character death happens, even in victory. If you can't lose, winning doesn't mean anything. It shouldn't happen easily or often, but it happens. But if you can't lose, winning doesn't mean anything.
But there won't be a do-over. As I said, I'm not the DM any more.
In their second encounter, they returned the favor.
This was to be round 3, and they didn't find the caster, just the Dragon he rode. The caster had fled, being badly injured. The dragon had been reluctant to abandon his treasure hoard, so he offered to barter with the party.
Party said no, and the fight was on. They actually expected to win this one rather handily, and in fact put 237 points of damage on the Dragon in the first round. Time for him to go, and he knew it.
He siezed the Petal as he left, planning on drowning it on the way. Plus, of course, it had neat magic, which would be the start of a new treasure hoard.
The Petal's player had boasted at how non-fragile the character was, so he was just asking for it. And I mean that in the literal sense.
Maybe he overestimated his capability, figuring that he could use an Invocation to do a short range D-Door if he got in trouble. I don't think he saw the grab-and-go coming.
When it happened, he..., well "cheated" is such a strong term... He made a rules mistake that was insanely in his favor, and that strained the credulity of everyone at the table. Okay, who am I kidding, he cheated.
But whether it was an honest mistake or a dishonest ploy, whether they expected to win or expected to lose, character death happens, even in victory. If you can't lose, winning doesn't mean anything. It shouldn't happen easily or often, but it happens. But if you can't lose, winning doesn't mean anything.
But there won't be a do-over. As I said, I'm not the DM any more.
Greenfield
Adventurer
As a follow up for any who care: The next DM decided he didn't want to start his adventure yet, since he can't be at the game next week, so I was the DM again, unexpectedly.
My resolution with regards to the Petal and the Dragon was to explain what he had gotten wrong (it took a while), and to tell him that I was ret-conning the end scene a little bit. His character hadn't killed the Dragon, but had managed to escape.
Functionally, the only difference was that they didn't have a dead Dragon to skin and otherwise dispose of. They lost out on the value of some Dragon hide, but other than that life goes on.
I didn't call what he did "cheating", but he knew I was unhappy. He got the message.
My resolution with regards to the Petal and the Dragon was to explain what he had gotten wrong (it took a while), and to tell him that I was ret-conning the end scene a little bit. His character hadn't killed the Dragon, but had managed to escape.
Functionally, the only difference was that they didn't have a dead Dragon to skin and otherwise dispose of. They lost out on the value of some Dragon hide, but other than that life goes on.
I didn't call what he did "cheating", but he knew I was unhappy. He got the message.
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