Thumbs Down to 3.5 Edition

[herald]

MY EYES!!!!! MY EYESSSSSS!!!!!

 

[Stormfalcon]

Don't put words in my mouth. Instead, try reading what I wrote again. I stated that D&D is not predated by any major videogames. I do not ascribe any 'spawning of videogame' powers to D&D.

True. Someone else said that D&D spawned video games, which is what I replied to initially.

Now one could probably make a strong case that fantasy video games (Ultima et al, as you mention) are a direct result of D&D. However I'm not concerned with that argument. I'm just quite certain that Space Wars and the Odyssey system do not predate D&D.

You did check out that history link, right? Odyssey came out in '72, as did the arcade version of Pong. Spacewar! was created ten years before that. Both are before '74, when D&D came out. Pretty clear to me.

Funny though, I just looked up Colossal Cave, and a page which discusses its history says that the initial creator (Will Crowther) wrote the game as an attempt to simulate the D&D game that he played with pen and paper.

www.rikadams.org/adventures/a_history.html

You might want to double-check that URL. It doesn't work.

 

[buzzard]

True. Someone else said that D&D spawned video games, which is what I replied to initially.



You did check out that history link, right? Odyssey came out in '72, as did the arcade version of Pong. Spacewar! was created ten years before that. Both are before '74, when D&D came out. Pretty clear to me.

I did now. My bad. I was thinking arcade Spacewar. That was a vector based two person arcade game which predated Asteroids that I used to play. It was late 70s. As for Odyssey, I must have been thinking Odyssey2 (which is what I owned).

You might want to double-check that URL. It doesn't work.

http://www.rickadams.org/adventure/a_history.html

I added an 's' by accident. Try that one.

buzzard

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I'm in the Theocracy of the Pale now but I've played most of the Duchy of Urnst mods too. That said, I remember facing a half-dozen devils (Lemures but they're still devils--and my group fought (and killed) the Erynies as well (although we weren't supposed to)) at APL 4 in Brendigund's Blood which was core--I'm surprised you didn't run into that encounter.

I also play in LG and can not count how many hasted, shielded, flying mages I have faced with my level 10 character. I have been harmed then inflicted in the same round by a hasted cleric. Can you say instant -8 hit points. In regards to weapons, my 5th level character in LG has enough to buy both a magical silver and a magical cold iron sword in addition to magic armor. Elder, what region do you play in? I have never faced multiple devils before level 6th. The earliest devils I faced were at APL 4 and then there was only 1.

-Psiblade

 

[seankreynolds]

Al'Kelhar said:
{The philosophy underlying D&D 3E is to minimise the effect of Rule 0. I'll reiterate that in bold, varied slightly for emotional impact: The philosophy underlying 3E is to remove the DM from the game. Accordingly, game balance must be inherent in the ruleset, as the DM no longer plays the role of arbiter on all things.}

Wow. I couldn't disagree with you more about your first statement.

If anything, 3E is a radical change from 2E because 3E tells you that being a DM can be fun. To summarize:

2E: Now you can play this really fun game! Too bad one of you has to be the DM and do a ton of work.
3E: Now you can play this really fun game! And one of you gets to be the creator of worlds!

3E emphasizes that being a DM is fun. Balance is in the game so the DM doesn't have to always be making rulings, true, but that's so the DM can focus on having fun and making the game fun rather than being a referee. Balance is essential not to eliminate the DM, but to let the DM focus on the fun parts of being a DM.

 

[Mercule]

2E: Now you can play this really fun game! Too bad one of you has to be the DM and do a ton of work.
3E: Now you can play this really fun game! And one of you gets to be the creator of worlds!

Absolutely agree. For this reason alone, I would not ever return to earlier editions (okay, maybe as a player, but not DM). The designers did an awesome job of tweaking balance and playability in 3E. Especially playability.

3E lets me get on with the game and stop worrying about the loose ends in the rules. Basically, I can be a Game Master and not a game designer.

There really isn't much more to say. I just find the idea that 3.x is less friendly toward DMs than earlier editions too incomprehensible.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

But the new rules cause a few other problems:
a)
Can a human now take a Halfling Longspear, and gain 10 feet reach for a -2 penalty to his attack rolls?

3.0: Heavy lance, one-handed weapon, 10' reach, no attack penalties.
3.5: Halfling longspear, one-handed weapon, 10' reach, -2 attack penalty.

I'd say 3.5 is more realistic. Wielding a 10' long weapon in one hand ought to be difficult.

b)
In most campaigns, Halflings, Gnomes, Humans, Dwarfes and Elves live alongside. They have their own lands, sure, but in most greater cities, you will find all of them - why didn`t Halflings and Gnomes never adapt to use weapon sized for other races?

Why should they have to? Why can't the halfings make weapons sized appropriately?

c)
If you want to create treasure, what type are the weapons found in it? All optimized for medium size characters? That would mean a huge penalty for halfling and gnomes.

60% Medium, 30% small, 10% other, according to the DMG.

 

[MerricB]

3E emphasizes that being a DM is fun. Balance is in the game so the DM doesn't have to always be making rulings, true, but that's so the DM can focus on having fun and making the game fun rather than being a referee. Balance is essential not to eliminate the DM, but to let the DM focus on the fun parts of being a DM.

Sean, I've seen it asserted several times that the one BIG flaw in 3E is the preparation required of the DM or game designer in getting the stat blocks of classed monsters and high-level characters exactly right.

Do you have any thoughts on that?

Cheers!

 

[maddman75]

In most campaigns, Halflings, Gnomes, Humans, Dwarfes and Elves live alongside. They have their own lands, sure, but in most greater cities, you will find all of them - why didn`t Halflings and Gnomes never adapt to use weapon sized for other races?

Why should they have to? Why can't the halfings make weapons sized appropriately?

Would it be too much to assume that the halfling word for long sword is the same as the human word for short sword?

As for prep time, you'll find it goes down with practice. And if you need to improv, don't get them exactly right. Just guesstimate the stats. Your players will never know.

 

[shadow]

3.0: Heavy lance, one-handed weapon, 10' reach, no attack penalties.
3.5: Halfling longspear, one-handed weapon, 10' reach, -2 attack penalty.

I'd say 3.5 is more realistic. Wielding a 10' long weapon in one hand ought to be difficult.

Sure the new weapon size rules are more "realistic", but since when has realism been a factor? We accept the abstract nature of hitpoints, not wanting to bog down the game play with tons of hit location and special damage charts. The new weapon size rules add another level of complexity and just bog down game play.