Thumbs Down to 3.5 Edition

MeepoTheMighty said:
3.0: Heavy lance, one-handed weapon, 10' reach, no attack penalties.
3.5: Halfling longspear, one-handed weapon, 10' reach, -2 attack penalty.

I'd say 3.5 is more realistic. Wielding a 10' long weapon in one hand ought to be difficult.

A problem with the definition of the lance, not of weapon sizing, and which was corrected in a manner that had nothing to do with weapon sizing (and which still doesn't really make sense or comport with "realism"). Like all of the other "problems" that the old sizing rules had, which could have been fixed without creating a complicated system in which each size of creature has its own weapon.

I don't want to rehash the handedness debate, we're stuck with it. But for every "halfling with a large dagger" question under 3.0, there are a host of similar questions for 3.5, like:

Why can't a human choose to be proficient in small, instead of medium, weapons and use two small spiked chains w/o the -2 "size" penalty?

Why does a medium longsword (a slashing bladed weapon that weighs 4 lbs) do less damage than a small greatsword (a slashing bladed weapon that weighs 4 lbs)?

There's good things about the handedness system, no doubt, but it makes it a pain in the buttar to DM.
 

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Snipehunt said:
Like all of the other "problems" that the old sizing rules had, which could have been fixed without creating a complicated system in which each size of creature has its own weapon.
Alright: Describe your system for fixing the faults of the old sizing rules.

Cheers!
 

Mercule said:
Absolutely agree. For this reason alone, I would not ever return to earlier editions (okay, maybe as a player, but not DM). The designers did an awesome job of tweaking balance and playability in 3E. Especially playability.

3E lets me get on with the game and stop worrying about the loose ends in the rules. Basically, I can be a Game Master and not a game designer.

There really isn't much more to say. I just find the idea that 3.x is less friendly toward DMs than earlier editions too incomprehensible.

Personal view: So why aren't I having as much fun now as I had with 2E? I've been DM'ing since, ooh, about 1980, when I first bought the D&D Basic set. I've been DM'ing continuously since 1996. I've had less fun as DM since late 2000, when my group switched to 3E, than I had in the previous 4 years DM'ing with 2E. For me, the reason is simple. In 3E combat is a mechanical process with rigid rules. The DM doesn't have to make decisions, the rules provide the answers. By contrast, 2E combat was infinitely fluid. Characters didn't have to take skills and feats to do things. The players just said 'I do this', or 'I try this', and I said 'OK', or 'OK, roll a d20, and roll high', or 'nope you can't because...'. Absolute power in the hands of the DM - and open to absolute abuse. Funnily enough, because I was fair, and because by the end of 2E I had an extremely well-developed ability to judge the balance between PCs and the bad guys in combat and could invariably guarantee that the PCs would win by the bare skin of their teeth if they did things right, the players loved it. Combat involved tension, drama, theatrical flair, and forced the players to think. 3E combat is constrained by the rules, not liberated. My group is more consistently disappointed by my rulings in 3E than in 2E, because I compare what they want to do with existing rules, and the rules do not permit things they want to do, at least without serious downsides.

(A recent example is a barbarian wanting to lean his greastword against a wall while he switched weapons, so he could pick it back up as a free action later. OK, but on the basis that drawing a weapon is a move-equivalent action, leaning the weapon against a wall is also a move-equivalent action, and on the basis that your barbarian will be leaning it against the wall so that it doesn't fall over and can be picked up easily in future, his attention is distracted by doing so, and it provokes an attack of opportunity, rules I. Well, in that case I just drop the {expletive} thing, responds he. In 2E, I'd rule the proposed action was fine and dandy, it's not like drawing a weapon or picking one up took any time or had any consequences in 2E combat, where each round was 1 minute long.)

But having said that, 3E does a good job of ensuring consistency in combat. This is important if (a) you play in multiple groups; (b) you play with multiple DMs; (c) you play in tournaments; (d) your DM thinks D&D is a competition between him or her and the players. Those people who denigrate 2E tend to be the people who have been forced to deal with at least one or more of the above situations. Yes, the 2E ruleset was a mess, but that provided every oportunity for good DMs to shine - and bad ones to alienate the rest of the gaming community.

I reiterate, one of the major features of the 3E rulset is the reduction of DM intervention and discretion. Good for players suffering under bad DMs. Bad for players with good DMs. In my view, there is now no excuse for bad DM'ing, but precious little incentive for good DM'ing.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar
 

I think anyone who says "3.5 is crap and I'm going to stay with 3.0" is way overreacting. Yes, there are some things about 3.5 I don't like (1 min/level buffs, for example), but there are so many more things I *do* like. The ranger is *playable*! Not only that, he's one of the few classes I'd consider taking most of the way to 20th.

The new mass versions of spells are a great way to integrate what people already liked about the chain metamagic feat, without having to allow it in all the broken circumstances.

Darkness sucks. I'll be the first to admit it. Why they changed this, I don't know. Easy enough to fix however.

And that's the crux of the matter... the changes to 3.5 are fairly complex, but the things you may not like are fairly easy to fix. It's a lot easier to say "spell focus gives +2" than to say "rangers get x, y, and z".

There are also plenty of optional rules you can put in place to recreate some of the feel of 3.0. Like single sized weapons? We can do that. Like multiple levels of cover? We can do that too.

There are so many good things about 3.5, I think it would be a terrible mistake to have a knee jerk reaction (just like dcollins originally berated the designers for) and dismiss the entire thing.

Would I houserule buff spells to 10 minutes a level? Sure. But I think it was right to drop them from 1 hour per level. I also would drop greater spell focus, and only allow a single spell focus for +2.

So don't jump to conclusions and ignore the entire thing because there are a few rotten apples, they don't spoil all the good ones still in the barrel.

-The Souljourner
 

Al'Kelhar said:
Personal view: So why aren't I having as much fun now as I had with 2E? I've been DM'ing since, ooh, about 1980, when I first bought the D&D Basic set.

Perhaps because you've been DMing since 1980? Ever heard of burn-out? Just an idea.
 

maddman75 said:
As for prep time, you'll find it goes down with practice. And if you need to improv, don't get them exactly right. Just guesstimate the stats. Your players will never know.
That's not fair to the players, who have to get their numbers exactly right or they're called for cheating. Remember, +1 to hit is a whole feat, a magical upgrade, or +2 to a stat. Those kinds of things don't come cheap to a PC, and NPCs should play by the same rules.
 
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Al'Kelhar, as a "good DM" you added your own rules to make it more enjoyable for yourself and your group. What's preventing you from house-ruling again? The old system said nothing about leaning a sword against the wall. As a good dm, you came up with a solution your group liked. Just because the revision adresses this situation (for the benefit of dm's who lack the experience or players' confidence) doesn't mean you can't again make the changes you like.
 

Kershek said:
That's not fair to the players, who have to get their numbers exactly right or they're called for cheating. Remember, +1 to hit is a whole feat, a magical upgrade, or +2 to a stat. Those kinds of things don't come cheap to a PC, and NPCs should play by the same rules.

I like to have my NPCs fully detailed, but really IME NPCs made up on-the-fly tend to be a lot weaker than a fully detailed character, not stronger. If I need an emergency NPC I usually use the DMG 3.0 sample ones, possibly giving an extra feat since they're 99% going to be human IMC, although often I'll assume the extra feat was wasted on something not combat-related.
 

Al'Kelhar said:
So why aren't I having as much fun now as I had with 2E?
Dunno. Personal style, maybe?

You've only been gaming for about 2-3 years longer than me. I was almost exclusively a DM for pretty much that entire time (only in the last couple of years have I finally gotten to play more often than I DMed).

I've also been complimented on my DMing ability. I have no delusions of grandeur, I just am confident in saying I don't suck and am probably on the plus side of the equation. Also, my gaming circle, while different now than in 1985, has always been reasonably stable. And I use a homebrew world. Basically, none of your caveats apply to me.

I think d20 is a great system. It's really refreshing to not have to always have my hand in the rules all the time. I find that the easy, consistant mechanics have a way of disappearing into the background which let's me spend more time on plot, description, whatever.

Maybe it just boils down to how I think vs. how you think. I don't know. All I can say about it is that I can't really wrap my brain around the idea that 1E/2E was easier to work with than 3E.
 

Al'Kelhar said:
(A recent example is a barbarian wanting to lean his greastword against a wall while he switched weapons, so he could pick it back up as a free action later. OK, but on the basis that drawing a weapon is a move-equivalent action, leaning the weapon against a wall is also a move-equivalent action, and on the basis that your barbarian will be leaning it against the wall so that it doesn't fall over and can be picked up easily in future, his attention is distracted by doing so, and it provokes an attack of opportunity, rules I. Well, in that case I just drop the {expletive} thing, responds he. In 2E, I'd rule the proposed action was fine and dandy, it's not like drawing a weapon or picking one up took any time or had any consequences in 2E combat, where each round was 1 minute long.)

Um .. pardon me, but if the rounds were 1 min long in 2E, there would've been little point in leaving the sword leaning against the wall in that edition too.
 

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