Tiefling and half-orc should not be in the PHB

[Somebloke]

I think it is fair to say that tieflings aren't standard fantasy. Pick up most fantasy novels and you pretty consistently run into variants on dwarves, elves, orcs, halfings, and gnomes. Those are the standard races in addition to human. In video games you see a lot more beastial races and stuff, but I say keep the standard traditional races (after all 4e is the only edition that introduces anything outside these core races in the phb) in the PHB and put the newer 4E races in a supplement.

Personally tieflings being in the PHB wont deter me from buying the books (because I will just ignore them along with dragonborne), but my guess is a lot of people are going to buy or not buy if certain races are included or excluded.

You aren't reading enough Fantasy novels. Or at least, not the ones I read.

And the idea of a bloodline cursed/blessed by outside powers is hardly a new concept. Nor the idea of a tough but dumb bruiser race. Also, as others pointed out, 'new' media enthusiasts make up a significant proportion of the target audience for DnD- it would be silly not to give them options as well in the core books.

My own personal dream? Since I love to run human- only campaigns, I would like to see some way to distinguish human characters from different backgrounds or regions like they did with Conan or Rokugan d20. but somehow I don't think it will make it in to Core.

 

[Aeolius]

Personally tieflings being in the PHB wont deter me from buying the books (because I will just ignore them along with dragonborne), but my guess is a lot of people are going to buy or not buy if certain races are included or excluded.

Agreed. Everyone has favorite races. When I suggested that the PH have human, elf, dwarf, halfling, and orc, I got flack from those who like half-elves and the like. With the "complexity dials" in mind, I was simply looking at things from a matter of simplicity. Playing a half-elf, gnome, or half-orc from the MM should be as simple as playing a sea elf or ghoul.

For that matter, in 30+ years of gaming, I have only played a dwarf PC once, in a one-shot. That's not to say I would not allow their aquatic cousins in my current campaign. Heck, I'd allow a player to choose a typical dwarf if they so chose... for as long as the character could hold their breath.

 

[Bedrockgames]

You aren't reading enough Fantasy novels. Or at least, not the ones I read.

And the idea of a bloodline cursed/blessed by outside powers is hardly a new concept. Nor the idea of a tough but dumb bruiser race. Also, as others pointed out, 'new' media enthusiasts make up a significant proportion of the target audience for DnD- it would be silly not to give them options as well in the core books.

We may be reading different books. But keep in mind there is a difference bewteen being standard and not being a new concept. These sorts of things do exist in fantasy novels, but they arent as standard as elves, gnomes, dwarves and halflings (nor are they as standard in your average fantasy campaign).

On the video game enthusiast front, it seems catering to them didn't attract many, and actually drove away many regular table top players. So while winning over this crowd should be important I think it should be done on D&D's terms rather than bending D&D to appeal to them.

My own personal dream? Since I love to run human- only campaigns, I would like to see some way to distinguish human characters from different backgrounds or regions like they did with Conan or Rokugan d20. but somehow I don't think it will make it in to Core.

i like human only games as well. My guess is you are correct here. Back in the 90s TSR did offer mechanical distinctions for humans of different backgrounds in some settings (i think they did it for birthright however). The problem is because these were mostly analogues to real people and ethnicities it was difficult not to offend people

 

[Belphanior]

I think it is fair to say that tieflings aren't standard fantasy. Pick up most fantasy novels and you pretty consistently run into variants on dwarves, elves, orcs, halfings, and gnomes.

That is not my experience. Most fantasy novels are human-only, at least insofar as PC-material is concerned. (D&D novels are the most notable exception but that's obviously a chicken-or-egg thing.)

But D&D is not "most fantasy novels". It's beholders, gelatinous cubes, and dragons that are color-coded for our convenience. It's Norse, Greek, and Egyptian myth all blended together along with German, Arabic, and Celtic folklore. And let's not forget all the Biblical references in the cleric's spell list. Or the Lovecraftian elements of Aboleths and Illithid.

On top of that it's a "medieval Europe" that is neither medieval nor European, where polytheism is objective truth, Frankenstein's monster and the Jewish Golem walk side by side in the lab of a Vancian wizard, and Modrons patrol the dimensions.

But the PCs aren't allowed to be cat-people or reptiles or anything. Because that would make it weird.

 

[Khaalis]

Half dragons belong in a "Supplement: Dragon*******s - So, you want rampant horny dragon interspecies sex ."

Why? Because you have a narrow imagination and can only see them this way? In my world dragons are a ruling species. They lay a large clutches of eggs. However, only a very small percentage of the eggs bear a true dragon birth. Usually instead they create the following (playable) species (in order of commonality): Kobolds, Dragonborn, Drakes.

However, the world does also have those with Draconic Heritage. How? Well some dragons are gifted with the ability to take humanoid form, and as with so many real-world examples, when one race "rules" over another, conception does happen. However, those produced via this method are almost as, if not more, uncommon than the birth of true dragons.

So there is an example for you. Not every humanoid-dragon has to be conceived via interspecies furry mating.

 

[CasvalRemDeikun]

I think it is fair to say that tieflings aren't standard fantasy.

Well, then it is a good thing nobody talking about the Tired Old Standard Fantasy RPG (TM). We are talking about D&D here, where Tieflings ARE something commonly seen. Where half-orcs ARE commonly seen. Nobody gives a flying fairy's finger about what people's fantasy reading lists.

 

[Khaalis]

My own personal dream? Since I love to run human- only campaigns, I would like to see some way to distinguish human characters from different backgrounds or regions like they did with Conan or Rokugan d20. but somehow I don't think it will make it in to Core.

You my friend, need to go check out Fantasy Craft. The only "racial ability" you get just from being human is: medium size and base speed 30. Everything else is based on your human "Talent". Since humans are so diverse, the Talent represents the character's individual heritage, outlook, personality, background, etc. Example Talents: Adaptable, Agile, Charismatic, Crusading, Grizzled, Industrious, Methodical, Ruthless, Savy, Stern, Svelte, Unpredictable, etc.

On top of this you also have a Specialty, which better defines your character's background combined as a focus for their chosen class training. Example Specialties: Acrobat, Adventurer, Archer, Aristocrat, Artisan, Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Criminal, Druid, Fencer, Gladiator, Lord, Merchant, etc.

Its really one of the best "Origin" systems I've seen, Especially for Humans. It is very easy to play an all human campaign. Its even incredibly easy to say run an all Human Rogue game and have no 2 characters alike.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Well, then it is a good thing nobody talking about the Tired Old Standard Fantasy RPG (TM). We are talking about D&D here, where Tieflings ARE something commonly seen. Where half-orcs ARE commonly seen. Nobody gives a flying fairy's finger about what people's fantasy reading lists.

I agree, D&D isn't simply about what is popular in current fantasy novels. But I would argue teiflings are not widely ambraced as a standard D&D race by most players. While they have been embraced somewhAt by the 4e crowd and some 3e fans, I think most people want the D&D standard races from the previous editions (granted 2E took out half orcs). Like I said, it isn't a deal breaker if they are in there, but i really would like the core character options to be what I generally expected in the first three editions.

 

[CasvalRemDeikun]

I agree, D&D isn't simply about what is popular in current fantasy novels. But I would argue teiflings are not widely ambraced as a standard D&D race by most players. While they have been embraced somewhAt by the 4e crowd and some 3e fans, I think most people want the D&D standard races from the previous editions (granted 2E took out half orcs). Like I said, it isn't a deal breaker if they are in there, but i really would like the core character options to be what I generally expected in the first three editions.

Tieflings were kind of a big thing in 2E as well, but that isn't the point. I disagree that they should focus on what was acceptable for the previous three editions and ignore the latest one. That would be a colossal mistake. They are better served paying attention to ALL of their source material. Like you said, it wouldn't be a deal breaker for most people to have races they don't use be in the books. The MM is likely to have Drow in it, a monster I have NEVER used in my games, but that is my problem, so I just don't use them.

 

[avin]

I agree, D&D isn't simply about what is popular in current fantasy novels. But I would argue teiflings are not widely ambraced as a standard D&D race by most players. While they have been embraced somewhAt by the 4e crowd and some 3e fans, I think most people want the D&D standard races from the previous editions (granted 2E took out half orcs). Like I said, it isn't a deal breaker if they are in there, but i really would like the core character options to be what I generally expected in the first three editions.

What? Tieflings was a major presence on Planescape, not just 3E and 4E fans like them. Most Tiefling fans come from AD&D2E, not 4E. This is heresy!

And, as somebody else suggested, a vast majority of fantasy books shows humans only as protagonists... not elves, not hobbits, not dwarves.

More and more I'm forced to believe there are a lot of Tolkien fans among D&D assuming the only game allowedy is tolkienesque fantasy... outside that is "badwrongfun".

It's not.

There's more to fantasy than halflings, in fact, considering centuries of fantasy, Halflings are n00bs compared to elves and dwarves.

Traditional in D&D is not the same as traditional in fantasy. Unless one thinks Old Good Tolkien started it all...

Again, we should respect each other preferences on DDN...