Tiefling and half-orc should not be in the PHB

[boredgremlin]

If it were up to me it would just be humans, dwarves, elves and halflings in the PHB.

Add in a section similar to 3e's savage species that gives a good guideline how to turn any creature in the MM into a playable race and then leave it up to individual DM's to decide if a particular race works in their world or not.

 

[avin]

If it were up to me it would just be humans, dwarves, elves and halflings in the PHB.

Add in a section similar to 3e's savage species that gives a good guideline how to turn any creature in the MM into a playable race and then leave it up to individual DM's to decide if a particular race works in their world or not.

So, you are saying that you can't say NO to a race in your games?

 

[SKyOdin]

I think it is fair to say that tieflings aren't standard fantasy. Pick up most fantasy novels and you pretty consistently run into variants on dwarves, elves, orcs, halfings, and gnomes. Those are the standard races in addition to human. In video games you see a lot more beastial races and stuff, but I say keep the standard traditional races (after all 4e is the only edition that introduces anything outside these core races in the phb) in the PHB and put the newer 4E races in a supplement.

I actually really doubt that "most" fantasy novels have dwarves and elves, let alone more unusual or exotic races such as gnomes or halflings. Most fantasy novels I have read tend to primarily focus on humans. I have never read a fantasy novel other than Tolkien's work that included halflings. The only novel series I can think of off the top of my head to include gnomes and D&Dish elves is the Shannara series, and the gnomes in that are nothing like in D&D. I would argue that there is no standardization in the fantasy genre whatsoever, and that trying call any one race in particular "standard", while pointing to another as "unusual" is rather silly.

 

[boredgremlin]

So, you are saying that you can't say NO to a race in your games?

If you had actually read you would see that i said the exact opposite.

I think every remotely plausible creature in the MM should be open to be mechanically used as races and its the sole province of the DM to decide on a case by case basis what works and what doesnt for his game.

Reading comprehension dude, its a good thing in an RPG fan.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Tieflings were kind of a big thing in 2E as well, but that isn't the point. I disagree that they should focus on what was acceptable for the previous three editions and ignore the latest one. That would be a colossal mistake. They are better served paying attention to ALL of their source material. Like you said, it wouldn't be a deal breaker for most people to have races they don't use be in the books. The MM is likely to have Drow in it, a monster I have NEVER used in my games, but that is my problem, so I just don't use them.

Teiflings weren't core in 2E, they were associated with settings.

It wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me, but I thi it will be for many who dont like 4E.

The MM is different. As are any optional race books they put out. You can never have too many monsters and non standard races are a great way to mix things up, but in the core I say stick with the more established races.

 

[Bedrockgames]

What? Tieflings was a major presence on Planescape, not just 3E and 4E fans like them. Most Tiefling fans come from AD&D2E, not 4E. This is heresy!

...

I am a huge 2E guy, but teifling were not core races. As you point out, they were planescape. I ran Ravenloft, so putting them in the core PHB would have been the last thing I wanted in a 2E PHB. Just like others wouldn't want half vistani in there.

Edit: just want to add the reason i associated them with 4e and3e, is they are a core race in 4E and in 3E i recall lots of players making them using the templates from the MM. In 2E I rarely saw them outside a planescape campaign.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I actually really doubt that "most" fantasy novels have dwarves and elves, let alone more unusual or exotic races such as gnomes or halflings. Most fantasy novels I have read tend to primarily focus on humans. I have never read a fantasy novel other than Tolkien's work that included halflings. The only novel series I can think of off the top of my head to include gnomes and D&Dish elves is the Shannara series, and the gnomes in that are nothing like in D&D. I would argue that there is no standardization in the fantasy genre whatsoever, and that trying call any one race in particular "standard", while pointing to another as "unusual" is rather silly.

I agree that I probably overstated the case here. Most fantasy novels tend to feature humans. But there are also a large number of tolkein inspired series with the standard alotment of demihumans (usually when I encounter diverse racial settings those are there). But the bigger point for me really is I think most standard fantasy rpg campaigna feature the standard cast of elves, dwarves, halflings, etc.

 

[steeldragons]

More and more I'm forced to believe there are a lot of Tolkien fans among D&D assuming the only game allowedy is tolkienesque fantasy... outside that is "badwrongfun".

It's not.

Far be it from me to stick my nose into this part of the conversation [though, I guess, apparently not], but I don't believe anyone here is saying that.

And, I believe, avin, you posted in this thread or some other about the fact you only play Dark Sun nad Planescape and homebrews...so those that don't?....are they have badwrongfun?

I've never heard anyone argue so vehemently against halflings and gnomes. Nor so "in favor" of tieflings. Because they're in Planescape?

Is that the defining factor now? How does this make you any "better/worse" than those who want to hold/bring back/enjoy a traditional D&D or even "Tolkienesque" fantasy?

There's more to fantasy than halflings,

aaaand, there it is again.

in fact, considering centuries of fantasy, Halflings are n00bs compared to elves and dwarves.

In the annuls of fantasy literature...or what we take as "fantasy" literature now that was once heroic tale-telling, Beowulf, the Morte D'Artur, Gilgamesh and Enkidu, the Tuatha de Danaan in the Book of Invasions, etc...

Teiflings are to Halflings what halflings are to...?

Traditional in D&D is not the same as traditional in fantasy. Unless one thinks Old Good Tolkien started it all...

Well...ya know...he kinda did. D&D, from the day one, made no bones about beign based, largely, off of Tolkien's (amongst others) work. In the attempt/idea that you could have "individual characters" that played, kinda, a sort of table-top wargame.

Would halflings have been in Basic D&D if not for Tolkien? Would Balors (which were originally published in the monsters section of OD&D as Balrogs)? Who/where do you think Orcs come from, exactly?

The elves of Tolkien were taken/envisioned, without argument, from lonnnng established elf and fairy Celtic and Breton folklore. The dwarves from Germanic and Norse folklore. Rangers/Aragorn (and thus, "half-elves") were arguably his intermingled with the concept of people who had met/mingled/spent time in the fairie world.

Give it another 20 or so years...the original creator of Tieflings will rouse his mighty head and have his place among the D&D greats...it's just not now/yet.

Because, I severely doubt you will argue, the 4e tiefling is not the 2e tiefling. The 2e originator of the tiefling idea, will be great among [TTRPG gamer] men...and women. Arguably, EGG might get some credit, since Iuz the Cambion was a known character/concept in Greyhawk since gods know when. But be that as it may...

Again, we should respect each other preferences on DDN...

Could not agree more.

But statements about the lack of necessity for halflings or gnomes (which appear in a great many Germanic cultures, as well as Brownies and assorted other fairy appear in the legends of the UK and seem to have been lumped into the D&D gnome...where'd the Rumplestilskin tale come from? I don't actually recall at the moment), cuz you don't see or have players using them in Planescape does not seem to echo this sentiment.

--SD

 

[TwinBahamut]

But the bigger point for me really is I think most standard fantasy rpg campaigna feature the standard cast of elves, dwarves, halflings, etc.

If this is true, isn't the main reason for it because those are the list of races from the D&D PHB? It is the kind of thing where the designers decisions over which races to include has affected many home campaigns, which has in turn affected many people's idea of what default fantasy is. It is the "chicken or the egg" issue. That is why it is a difficult argument for people to accept. The original establishment of those races was arbitrary. As such, proclaiming that they are the best choices and that anything else is less suitable for being included in the PHB is equally arbitrary.

There is also the fact that there is a huge difference between four different realms of inspiration for people. Myth, fantasy novels, other fantasy fiction (like videogames), and previous tabletop games all inspire people, and they often disagree and differ heavily in many respects. For example, based on D&D tradition, dwarves and drow are totally different things, but the idea of dwarves and dark elves are basically identical in myth. As such, there is no single precedent that can be correct or even widely-held.

 

[Bedrockgames]

If this is true, isn't the main reason for it because those are the list of races from the D&D PHB? It is the kind of thing where the designers decisions over which races to include has affected many home campaigns, which has in turn affected many people's idea of what default fantasy is. It is the "chicken or the egg" issue. That is why it is a difficult argument for people to accept. The original establishment of those races was arbitrary. As such, proclaiming that they are the best choices and that anything else is less suitable for being included in the PHB is equally arbitrary.

I agree completely. These races aren't ideal forms of the best possible campaign. That isn't my argument. But the point is, D&D has created a preference for these races by using them over the years (and I think they are helped by things like tolkein and a vague awareness of european folklore). This has become the standard, it is part of the D&D brand in the same way vancian casting is. It is the reason people who stuck with D&D over the years kept coming back. If they are trying to keep customers, they would be wise to produce something recognizeably D&D rather than try to turn D&D into a different game. And it isn't that I am closed minded about other options. i play lots of alternatives to D&D that are completely different in flavor and mechanically, but when I play D&D it is because I want Vancian casting, demihumans and all the rest. If I want something else there are better games out there for new and interesting mechanics or settings.