Tiefling and half-orc should not be in the PHB

[boredgremlin]

Lets throw a wrench in this argument...... gremlin at work, wrench, get it?

Anyway who says we stick with traditional fantasy but say screw Tolkien? His world was kinda boring and way too black and white.

Lets rebuild D&D from the ground up using Moorecock.

Good and Evil? Boring. Lets use law and chaos as the central battle of the planes.

Great wheel? Stick it. Moorecock had a decidedly more Lovecraftian approach to the outer realms. Madness and mind bending magic. Make the outer planes truly, deeply, weird and terrifying.

Races? Chaos touched demon races, evil elf Melniboneans, magi-tech style humans from the hawkmoon books. Tons of good real world mythology touched but with a scary acid trip edge races in moorecock.


That would solve a lot of these debates just by virtue of being so different that everyone would create whole new things to argue about. LOL they would still argue but thats human nature, never gonna change. At least it would be new and more interesting arguments.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The setting backbone you propose boredgremlin is perfeclty fine, but the issue is rebuilding D&D is going to drive away more people than it attracts. Like I said, people play D&D because it is D&D, not beause it has potential to be something better.

 

[steeldragons]

Lets throw a wrench in this argument...... gremlin at work, wrench, get it?

I don't play steampunk.

Yes. yes. I get it. Boredgremlin, a truer profile name twas never known.

Nice try.

I doubt it will alleviate it. But points for trying.

[EDIT] And apparently I'm in the "need to spread it around camp"...but still, nice try. [/EDIT]
--SD

 

[boredgremlin]

The setting backbone you propose boredgremlin is perfeclty fine, but the issue is rebuilding D&D is going to drive away more people than it attracts. Like I said, people play D&D because it is D&D, not beause it has potential to be something better.

Ya know i was half kidding but the more I think about it you really wouldnt need to change all that much in how an average game actually plays out.

You would still have swords and sorcery dungeon crawling, evil wizards and monsters, treasure and BBEGS out to destroy the world.

The flavor would just be a little different. Instead of an orc tribe you might run into a tribe of big, green, mutant humanoid creatures whose exposure to some source of chaotic magic has warped them into bloodthirsty savages who prey on the human villages around them.

Demons would be a little less mindless killing machines that later editions turned them into and a little more distant, mysterious but certainly sinister tempters. Who naturally could also kick your ass if they wanted to but thats not what they are there for.

Even if not core at least a setting supplement based on Moorecock would be something that would probably get my money.

 

[Klaus]

The races are from Tolkien though.

Not really.

Compare the elves from the Hobbit or Lord of the Rings with the original elf (which was in itself a class, but was essentially a "fighter/magic-user"). Apart from proficency with bows, not much reflects the tall, woodsy Tolkien elves.

The D&D elves were more strongly influenced by the elves from Poul Anderson's books "Three Hearts & Three Lions" and "The Broken Sword". The description of elves in these books is pretty much spot-on for the original high elves and grey elves.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Ya know i was half kidding but the more I think about it you really wouldnt need to change all that much in how an average game actually plays out.

You would still have swords and sorcery dungeon crawling, evil wizards and monsters, treasure and BBEGS out to destroy the world.

The flavor would just be a little different. Instead of an orc tribe you might run into a tribe of big, green, mutant humanoid creatures whose exposure to some source of chaotic magic has warped them into bloodthirsty savages who prey on the human villages around them.

Demons would be a little less mindless killing machines that later editions turned them into and a little more distant, mysterious but certainly sinister tempters. Who naturally could also kick your ass if they wanted to but thats not what they are there for.

Even if not core at least a setting supplement based on Moorecock would be something that would probably get my money.

That is the beauty of a robust setting line. My favorite edition was 2E and the grwat thing about it was it had a pretty neutral set of core classes and races, but endless possibilities with settings and option books. This is how I would approach it. Keep the core standar D&D but focus on putting out great supplements that help GMs tailor their settings.

 

[TwinBahamut]

It is the reason people who stuck with D&D over the years kept coming back. If they are trying to keep customers, they would be wise to produce something recognizeably D&D rather than try to turn D&D into a different game. And it isn't that I am closed minded about other options. i play lots of alternatives to D&D that are completely different in flavor and mechanically, but when I play D&D it is because I want Vancian casting, demihumans and all the rest. If I want something else there are better games out there for new and interesting mechanics or settings.

I'll disagree with a few aspects of this.

I don't see the PHB inclusion of things like tieflings, half-orcs, or dragonborn as "turning D&D into a different game." After all, such races have been in D&D for most of its length, in some form or another. It is not changing it into something else so much as it is bringing some of its own identity more visibly to the forefront. Of course, I'd also like to see races in D&D that have classically not been available as options, but I don't see that as turning it into a different game either. It expands the game, but that doesn't mean it becomes something different. The infinite potential for expansion and variation has always been one of the game's key elements.

D&D with a few new races is still much more recognizably D&D than the old Immortals set from BECMI, if you ask me.

Also, I'll disagree with the idea that D&D should stick to a single, static concept and leave everything else to different games. That is not how the market leader for the entire hobby, which sells itself as a game for letting players use their own imagination and build their own worlds, is ever going to work. The creators and players of D&D are far more ambitious than that. Staying the same without change is nothing more than a slow death.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Also, I'll disagree with the idea that D&D should stick to a single, static concept and leave everything else to different games. That is not how the market leader for the entire hobby, which sells itself as a game for letting players use their own imagination and build their own worlds, is ever going to work. The creators and players of D&D are far more ambitious than that. Staying the same without change is nothing more than a slow death.

I am strictly talking about the core. Like I said, love new and interesting settings for D&D. Darksun, planescape, al-qadim and Ravenlift were some of my favorites. But if they suddenly released a PHB without halflings and dwarved, but with a bunch of darksun races, there would be some brand confusion. D&D has always had great options to pick from but these generally haven't bern in the core book. I am just saying it is probably better to stick to the core races D&D fans expect.

D&D is actually slipping from its leadership position, not because they failed to innovate but because they over innovated and lost some of their brand identity. There have always been better options than D&D for revolutionary mrchanics and "cutting edge" design (as well as unique core concepts). D&D should play to its strengths as a brand. Understanding its customers and why they like D&D is key, breaking new ground and trying to convince fans to follow is folly for them. The place to experiment is settings and supps. But the core should be identifiable as D&D.

 

[Kynn]

I think it is fair to say that tieflings aren't standard fantasy. Pick up most fantasy novels and you pretty consistently run into variants on dwarves, elves, orcs, halfings, and gnomes.

Which "most fantasy novels" are you talking about? Because I don't think the majority of fantasy novels out thre are anything like this.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Which "most fantasy novels" are you talking about? Because I don't think the majority of fantasy novels out thre are anything like this.

I can think of plenty of fantasy novels who meet this requirement. But almost all of them are attempting to rip off LotR or D&D, so it's a circular inspiration.

Arguing over terms like "a majority" is pointless unless you want to dig up numbers.