Tiefling and half-orc should not be in the PHB

[Elf Witch]

The races are from Tolkien though.

Yes they are but as I said earlier it is not pure Tolkien. There is no way the wizard class is anything like Gandalf. Something that a lot of gamers who don't like the older magic systems bring up over and over again. Nor is the cleric, druid, barbarian, rogue anything like LOTR.

Like I said it is a mish mash. I think it is great to add things in from older editions to get people like me who didn't go to 4e to want to play 5e but there are a lot of young people who got into gaming from other avenues of fantasy and there gaming taste need to be filled as well if want this game to going.

 

[steeldragons]

Ok...how 'bout this...

I, personally, have advocated in numerous of these 5e threads, specifically about Race, that the starter box (which I am assuming will cover, about, levels 1-5, maybe 1-10) and the near-simultaneously released complete PHB (which I am assuming will cover the "whole pre-epic" game, so say levels 1-20) include all of the following as such...

"Classic" Game option: the basic 4, Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling
"Legacy" Game option: Dragonborn, Gnome, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, and Tiefling.
Additional option/add-ons: whatever's left that people want to see...another 4, I suppose.

You [the DM!] get to pick and choose what races are goign to be present in your world...or the section of your world the PCs are starting in...and go from there.

BUT...the baffling length and statements of this thread are making me think now...

WHAT IF...

...both the starter box and the PHB do the Races as follows...

RACE TYPE
NAME
Size
+X to one ability score
Movement Rate Adjustment, if necessary
+Y resistance to or save from Z
3 Special Abilities (with a list -I'd say not more than 1 page, maybe more- of a number of sample special racial abilities for DMs and/or Players to choose from and/or [note the "and" and the "or"] use as guidelines to generate their own!)

SO, you'd have sample "templates" I suppose you'd call them for:

"Brute" Race (for the Dragonborn, Minotaurs, Half-giants/ogres, Goliaths, prolly Warforged, etc...whatever you want)
Large
+2 to Strength.
Movement Rate: *whatever 1 or 2 categories above humans.
+1 to saves vs., say, Fire (for a Dragonborn) or "Push"/forced movement effects for a goliath or whatever. But a +1 to something.
[Sample] Special Abilities:
+2 to damage egardless of strength with a (if they include such mechanics) save or "Push"/"Stun"/etc. lingering effect.
Carrying twice normal encumbrance regardless of strength.
Able to weild Two-handed weapons with One hand (thus able to utilize shields to enhance AC).

"Human" Race (humans, half-elves, half-orcs, FULL orcs -maybee with an extra +1 to str., hobgoblins, etc..)
blah
blah
blah

"Elf" Race (also applicable might be Eladrin, Tieflings or Aasimar, etc.)
[again, just as a sample/example. Please don't quote me and start posting back: "But elves should get +2 blah blah" or "Tieflings should be in the Human block yada yada." I honestly don't care how you categorize them. That's not the point! This is an exammmmpull.]
Size: 5-6 feet tall.
+1 to Dex.
Movement: +1 category faster if not heavily encumbered.
+2 to saves against charms/enchantment magic
Special Abilities
Low-light vision
Move Silently
Arcane Afinity (however that's defined. I'm not writing out a whole page of sample abilities in this thread.

Then have a:
"Sturdy" Race block (usable for say 4-5 feet tall, with or without the stocky and you could get your satyrs, your dwarves -all sorts- a tall gnome if you wanted, an "Elfquest/Wolfrider" build elf, "little people" humans, whatever.)

and a "Small Races" block for those under 4 feet: for those who want gnomes, halflings, sprites if you like, goblins, kobolds, a "Keebler/Santa's Helper" elf build, etc.)

And that's it. Culture and those traits/abilities form them are for the DM to decide and form for their game.

There you go.

NO list of available races...only what you/your DM choose(s) to make yourself.

Will that make everyone happy?

Or do the numbers and letters need to spell out every +/-, special ability, resistance, weapon/spell proficiency, appearance and culture for you?

Just typin' out loud here with my first coffee, so maybe its been done or thought of or dismissed already...but c'mon, it's my first cup of coffee.

Happy Sunday all.
--Steel Dragons

 

[trancejeremy]

The races are from Tolkien though.

Half - elves & dwarves are quite common in folklore, and I don't think Tolkien had gnomes

He does get credit for popularizing orcs and inventing Hobbits, and probably the concept of half-orc and half-elf (as opposed to simply a changeling.)

But the game wasn't meant to simulate anything but what people wanted to play. Things were taken from various novels (or films or even TV shows) simply because they seemed like a fun thing to add or play.

That part should stay in the game, it should in part a reflection of popular fantasy, but at the same time, it shouldn't drive the game's mechanics. Unfortunately a lot of the more extreme races can break the system.

That's not new - the half-ogre probably started it...

 

[avin]

No one is assuming anything. Of course some people want to play weird and strange things. That is what expansion books are for.

Weird is Halflings and Gnomes.

Want a real core? Human, Dwarf and Elf.

Halflings and Gnomes are just as bizarre as Githtankis, Dragonborns and Warforgeds.

 

[avin]

Also why do people get in arguments based on what is popular when it is based on anecdotal evidence? Just because in your experience people prefer one thing does not mean that in other areas something else is not more popular.

I've clearly stated that my argument is based on what I've seen, therefore, I may be wrong.

But until I see players happily joining as Halflings there's no way I believe is that popular. It's anecdotal, so people are free to ignore my comment

I like tieflings, and warforged, but I don't thinkthey should be in the core. Not because I dont like them but because D&D is a tolkienesque fantasy style game. This edition shouldnt be about moving away from the D&D brand, it should be about embracing it. Make a kick but traditional fantasy style game, and let mods expand it.

Tolkien didn't created Humans, Elves, Dwarves or Gnomes. As far as we know, Vance and other guys were a more potent influence.

D&D needs more variety, even skyrim have lizard and feline races, and it is a very tradicional computer RPG. I have 32 years and my d&d more influenced by videogames than Tolkien and I know that is like this for many people.

Exactly. Wotc can't alienate this part of their costumers, videogame players, used to a lot of races, in the name of people who dislike it.
(And Bethesda have been using weird races all along Elder Scrolls)

I'd much prefer the classic four races to be in PHB1 (and maybe even the half-orc and gnome), not because I have a problem with saying no to players but because this sets a precedent on the "feel" of the core 5e books.

I like my traditional Tolkien-esque fantasy and I like the feel of those core races. Start throwing teiflings into the core and that means that, if there's a core campiagn world, suddenly there needs to be a reason for half-demons walking around and being generally accepted.

So, more races on core will spoil your fun? That doesn't seem to make sense at all... a DM is free to decide what he will put on his homebrew.

I think one of the core problems with this entire discussion is summed up in this statement. What 1 persons considered "weird and strange" is something a common staple to another. When you come right down to it.... ANYTHING in fantasy is weird and strange. That's kind of the point. When it comes down to it, half-orcs and tieflings have become icon D&D races, whether some people like them or not.

It's a fantasy game... not a tolkienesque fantasy game.

The races are from Tolkien though.

Not humans, not dwarves, not elves, not gnomes... etc.
Just halflings/hobbits.

 

[NN]

Half orcs can be core. Theyre a bog standard fantasy trope.

Tieflings arent. They belong in a "Supplement if you want a setting with lots of interplanar interaction "

Half dragons belong in a "Supplement: Dragon*******s - So, you want rampant horny dragon interspecies sex ."

 

[harlokin]

Half orcs can be core. Theyre a bog standard fantasy trope.

Tieflings arent. They belong in a "Supplement if you want a setting with lots of interplanar interaction "

Half dragons belong in a "Supplement: Dragon*******s - So, you want rampant horny dragon interspecies sex ."

Why? Just cos you said so?

 

[avin]

Half orcs can be core. Theyre a bog standard fantasy trope.

Tieflings arent. They belong in a "Supplement if you want a setting with lots of interplanar interaction "

Half dragons belong in a "Supplement: Dragon*******s - So, you want rampant horny dragon interspecies sex ."

...and I was under impression DDN was about to put everybody at the same page... but it seems people will keep their mentalithy that only "X" races is good, "give me what I want, as I don't care how others play"...

 

[Ant]

I had the impression this thread was about stating our preferences on what races we'd like to see in the PHB. Getting upset because people don't want your furry/half-flumph/boobasaur or whatever is just as silly as saying you're not buying 5ed because one of the races is a furry/half-flumph/boobasaur.

As stated previously, my preference is seeing human, elf, dwarf and halfing in the core. I'd much prefer not seeing overly exotic races (basically anthropomorphic animals or planar beings) in the core because this sets a precedent for trying to explain these races in the core world (if there is one).

And if the core world is, oh say Greyhawk and suddenly there are teiflings and half-dragons and half-flumphs wandering (or errr ... floating) around then I'll be rather put out.

And no-one wants that ...

 

[Bedrockgames]

Why? Just cos you said so?

I think it is fair to say that tieflings aren't standard fantasy. Pick up most fantasy novels and you pretty consistently run into variants on dwarves, elves, orcs, halfings, and gnomes. Those are the standard races in addition to human. In video games you see a lot more beastial races and stuff, but I say keep the standard traditional races (after all 4e is the only edition that introduces anything outside these core races in the phb) in the PHB and put the newer 4E races in a supplement.

Personally tieflings being in the PHB wont deter me from buying the books (because I will just ignore them along with dragonborne), but my guess is a lot of people are going to buy or not buy if certain races are included or excluded.