Tiefling as a core race?

[Particle_Man]

The thing about Tieflings is that I thought that they could be "mostly human" or "mostly elf" or "mostly dwarf", etc., with a hint of fiendish blood in them somewhere. Assuming that is correct, is Tiefling likely to be a race in and of itself, or perhaps a racial talent tree open to all the other races?

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Why does it have to be canon to work like that in your game?

Reflavoring is much easier than re-engineering, IMHO -- explanations are easier than mechanics, since there is no need to balance.

Cheers, -- N

It doesn't.

However, apparently none of you have (a) lore lawyers; or (b) people who are new to the game and don't like when I say "yes, that's what the book says, but that's not exactly how it works here."

Believe it or not, that last has been a sticking point in getting someone to play.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

The thing about Tieflings is that I thought that they could be "mostly human" or "mostly elf" or "mostly dwarf", etc., with a hint of fiendish blood in them somewhere. Assuming that is correct, is Tiefling likely to be a race in and of itself, or perhaps a racial talent tree open to all the other races?

Off the top of my head, I can't really remember if tieflings in Planescape were meant to represent all humanoid-fiend mixtures or just the descendants of humans and fiends - but, in Third Edition, the Forgotten Realms and various Monster Manuals have pretty firmly established that tieflings have only human ancestry on their mortal side.

Fey'ri and tanarruk are elven-demon and orc-demon descendants, respectively, in the Forgotten Realms, while the Fiend Folio gives us the maeluth (dwarves with devil ancestry) and the wispling (halflings with demon ancestry). Monster Manual II's chaonds and zenthyris specify human heritage.

Now, there's nothing to say that the Fourth Edition tiefling won't be a catch-all category for all fiendish planetouched . . . but I doubt it.

 

[Nifft]

However, apparently none of you have (a) lore lawyers; or (b) people who are new to the game and don't like when I say "yes, that's what the book says, but that's not exactly how it works here."

You're absolutely right, I've never even heard of that. I think it's even in someone's sig -- "no such thing as a flavor lawyer"

So your poor luck. Educate that person post haste, or send him here and we'll help.

Cheers, -- N

 

[HeyJoe]

I could care less about tieflings, but I just have to ask why there seems to be so much hate towards Tolkien?

It makes little sense to me...

 

[Nifft]

I could care less about tieflings, but I just have to ask why there seems to be so much hate towards Tolkien?

Examples?

I get the feeling people are growing tired of Tolkein as a sacred cow, but not that they are getting tired of humans, elves, dwarves and halflings.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I could care less about tieflings, but I just have to ask why there seems to be so much hate towards Tolkien?

I loved LotR, and respect it and its creator. It is probably the single most important series for Fantasy literature in terms of both popularizing it and getting the genre taken seriously as literature.

However its not the end all be all of fantasy literature that some make it out to be. While it is incredibly inventive, its not particularly well written.

And yet, when I wander the aisles of some of my favorite bookstores, the LotR books take up more space than all of the other great fantasy writers of yesteryear combined. Sometimes, I can't even find a single book by Lieber or Howard, etc., but I can find 4 different softcover editions and 2 hardcover editions of LotR.

 

[Michael_R_Proteau]

And yet, when I wander the aisles of some of my favorite bookstores, the LotR books take up more space than all of the other great fantasy writers of yesteryear combined. Sometimes, I can't even find a single book by Lieber or Howard, etc., but I can find 4 different softcover editions and 2 hardcover editions of LotR.

Bookstores carry what sells and is in print, if it is not selling, it is not in print. Lieber and Howard, two writers whose work I truly enjoy and have been a staple of my reading habits, have gone in and out of print over the last 30 years, Tolkien has not. If it is not available in print, they cannot carry it. Would more Howard/Liber sell if stores carried it-probably, but it has to to seel enough to justify a print run. Right now, Howard, Lieber and such are experiencing a bit of a renaissance in popularity, but 10 years ago, they were mostly out of print.

Stores will pretty much carry whatever turns them a tidy profit. If they carry 4 different editions of Prof. Tolkien's wor, it is because those editions are selling. They choose products with mass appeal and fill in available space with niche products as needed.

To return to the original topic of tieflings as a core race, I don't have a problem with it. It is a fantasy/mythological staple even if it wasn't in the first conception of D&D (but then there were only 3 classes and a couple of races in the first conception of D&D i.e. the '74 boxed set, and a lot have been added since then, so why not add a few more). A few have asked if they are confirmed...well being ont he cover art released for the 4E PHB seems a pretty good confirmation as far as I am concerned.

I much prefer the core books to be a toolkit to use as I see fit rather than a straghtjacket, and form what I head this weekend in Indy and read when I got home this evening, one of the guiding principles of the new edition seems to be providing options not putting restrictions. So present tieflings as an option in the PHB, for use by those who choose to, but placing it there shouldn't restrict a group from making a choice about wwhat they want to use and what they don't want to use. There's nothing wrong with saying no to a presented option.

-M

 

[ptolemy18]

Once fantasy gets too far afield it becomes somewhat alien and that is fine for divergent D&D settings. Plus, races like Tieflings (HATE the name) are a more fantastic race than elves because they are built upon the assumption of strong extra-planer contact. The real danger of such fantastic races being commonplace is that there is an ever increasing escalation of te fantastic until nothing is fantastic anymore until is is entirely alien.

That is very true, that too much fantastic weirdness can make the campaign setting ridiculous, but.... let's face it, this is what all D&D is like, particularly from 3rd edition onward, with the 3rd (and apparently 4th) edition "high magic" emphasis. It all takes place in a world that is so insanely crowded with RPG supplements -- er, I mean monsters, races, magic and stuff -- that it's hard to imagine that anyone lives there who isn't a spellstitched warforged half-fiend dwarven warlock. :/

But that's just how it is, to an extent, because the game's gotta release supplement after supplement. It's up to the DM's individual campaign to try to give it form and keep it under control. The idea of tieflings running around between planes and setting up happy tiefling villages where everyone looks like a bat-winged anime cosplayer is ridiculous. But the idea of some wandering adventurer who has red eyes and a sinister look and is shunned everywhere because he has the blood of devils in him... THAT'S AWESOME. And despite all the ridiculous stuff which will certainly be wrapped around it in 4E, this *is* one, IMHO, cool and legitimate way to interpret the tiefling.

Jason

 

[ptolemy18]

However, apparently none of you have (a) lore lawyers; or (b) people who are new to the game and don't like when I say "yes, that's what the book says, but that's not exactly how it works here."

God I hate that! But I imagine that could be a very common complaint with very inexperienced players. I certainly would've been annoyed when I was a 10-year-old elementary-school D&D player if someone said my fighter couldn't worship Ishtar (from 1st edition DEITIES & DEMIGODS) because Ishtar didn't exist in that DM's campaign world... I didn't really even understand the *idea* of campaign worlds back then. It was all just D&D. Anything that was in the books had to be in the game.

Now, if anyone older than a teenager acts like that, though, then that's pretty stupid... :/

Jason