[+] Tiered damage resistance

[CapnZapp]

There's definitely something to what you are talking about, where damage resistance to non-magical weapons is pretty much a non-factor to any campaign that isn't specifically run as low-(or no)-magic games. And the urge to make monsters more resistant to less-powerful weapons makes total sense. This is especially true in a campaign such as yours, Capn, where the ability to buy magic items is a central part of what you are trying to put together for your own game.

Thank you

We have qualities such as Masterwork, Silvered, Mithril, Adamantine etc. that we use to signal "better" or "more deadly", and these are narrative explanations. A Silvered weapon has a story...

Oh I do see your point. In editions past D&D would of course have gone with the "more is more" approach. Not merely reassigning the "common" uncommon materials (silver and adamantium), but to add oodles more!

Adamantium defeats DR against non-magical weapons made of adamantium
Copper-Adamantite defeats DR against +1 weapons made of adamantium
Cyrite (Arcane Steel) defeats DR against +2 weapons made of adamantium

Silver defeats DR against non-magical weapons that are silvered
Hizagkuur defeats DR against +1 weapons that are silvered
Pandemonic Silver defeats DR against +2 weapons that are silvered

Cold Iron defeats DR against non-magical weapons made of Cold Iron
Nephelium defeats DR against +1 weapons made of Cold Iron
Abyssal Bloodiron defeats DR against +2 weapons made of Cold Iron

If you have a low-level Cleric and a Paladin in a group and they cast Bless and Divine Favor on the Paladin... the Paladin for an entire fight has ostensibly a variable +1 to +4 magic weapon (+1d4 attack roll bonus for Bless, +1d4 damage bonus for Divine Favor). And the game then wants us to believe that having a +3 magic weapon is somehow this massive boon? Not likely.

Except you can have these boons on top of the magic weapon bonus.

While any given +1 is just as valuable or worthless as any other, the magic weapon bonus lets you have two of them.

Having "one more than all of them" really is a massive boon. It might not actually wreck anything when applied to attack or damage rolls, but it sure does when applied to defense. That's why Sane puts all the armor and shields in its own section, to make it clear that if you give +3 full plate to optimizers they will break bounded accuracy, precisely because they will use first "all of them" bonuses, and then on top of that the +3 from the magic armor.
You can still hand out +3 full plate to any other player. For instance, there are loads of new happy players that walk around with maybe AC 14. Giving them AC 17 isn't wrecking anything - heck, it's helping them, because now they sport half-decent defense and might actually survive. My point here is merely to say that +3 AC bonuses aren't inherently bad, just bad when they're the straw that breaks the camel's back.

 

[Kinematics]

My own (biased) approach would be that standard +1/+2/+3 weapons simply don't do magic damage. Treat them as exceptionally well-crafted weapons instead. A weapon needs to have some magical effect on top of its base physical properties in order for the physical damage to bypass normal resistance.

A longsword: Resisted normally.

A +1 longsword: Resisted normally.

A Flame Tongue: Not resisted.

A longsword with Magic Weapon applied to it: Not resisted.

A longsword with Holy Weapon applied to it: Not resisted.

A longsword used with Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade: Not resisted.

A silvered longsword: Not resisted against certain monster types.


It's still relatively reasonable to bypass resistances, but it costs resources (spell slots, concentration, etc). For permanent access, the weapon should be explicitly magical (eg: Flame Tongue), not just, "Has a bonus to hit and damage".

Then treat 'does magical damage' as a property in place of a +1, when handing out loot. So you can have a Sparkly Magic Short Sword, or a Short Sword +1. The first bypasses resistances, which is huge when you need it, but not that commonly called for; while the second does better against normal creatures, which is very nice most of the time, but doesn't help you against certain nasty monsters.

DEFCON 1's ideas of degrees of magical power in a weapon (silver can hold some magic power, mythril can hold more, and adamantine are just dripping with power, and each are thus effective against higher tiers of resistant monsters) really does solidify the idea. You can separate out the idea of "magic damage" from "mechanical bonuses". So you can have a +3 sword, but if it's made of iron, it's still worthless against that werewolf.

 

[CapnZapp]

Sure, but keep in mind the thread's premise: It is considered an unwanted design bug that DR is a non-issue once past the lowest levels.

In this context, cantrips can't be allowed to bypass Kraken DR.

 

[CapnZapp]

More specifically I started the thread in the hopes of getting detailed design feedback on my suggested implementation; if there's any side effects I need to be aware of, or if I'm good to go. So I'd appreciate any feedback on that implementation in particular [emoji4] Thx!

 

[DEFCON 1]

Except you can have these boons on top of the magic weapon bonus.

While any given +1 is just as valuable or worthless as any other, the magic weapon bonus lets you have two of them.

Having "one more than all of them" really is a massive boon. It might not actually wreck anything when applied to attack or damage rolls, but it sure does when applied to defense. That's why Sane puts all the armor and shields in its own section, to make it clear that if you give +3 full plate to optimizers they will break bounded accuracy, precisely because they will use first "all of them" bonuses, and then on top of that the +3 from the magic armor.

Oh absolutely. But I think my point is that the game insinuates (based upon rarity, based upon which monster hoards might have them and thus what level you are when you come upon them, and in what you are trying to figure out... based upon potential price) that the bonus points from magic armor and weapons is more important than bonuses elsewhere. Which I just don't happen to see as being true. A +2 bonus is a +2 bonus.

+2 magic armor gives you 2 points of AC bonus and it's "always on". Shield of Faith also gives you 2 points of AC bonus but it only lasts 10 minutes and has Concentration. And yet the former is considered "very rare" and theoretically won't start showing up until CR5-CR10 treasure hoards (and only then its a 1 in 50 chance to even get a roll on the Table H chart, and then 1 in whatever for the armor to show up)... whereas the latter you can get at 1st level.

Are those 2 points of AC bonus from the armor because it is "always on" really so much better than the 2 points from Shield of Faith that it deserves to be held back from people until they are in their teens in level? I don't think so at all. And that's why I think using Plus bonuses to magic armor and magic weapons are pretty crappy ways of making them seem important. Because their importance comes from things that are incredibly replaceable.

Great... I've reached 12th level and my "reward" is finding a +2 magic weapon... the same exact +2 bonus I received upon reaching 4th/8th level and having taken a pair of +2s to my primary attack stat. Sure, they all stack together which is nice... but to me it makes no sense that the game tries to make the magic weapon such a "reward" and a bigger deal than the bonuses that came from bumping up my primary attack stat. Because it's not. The reward is exactly the same. And thus in my opinion the baseline Plus magic weapon in no way deserves the praise we always seem to heap upon it.

***

But that's neither here nor there for your purposes and is an argument for a different day. Suffice it to say, though, I do think tiering resistances can work fine and not cause any issues for you. For me personally like I said, I'd change it from a magical Plus system to a magical material used system just because it is more evocative for me to use the narrative descriptors. But either way will work.

 

[CapnZapp]

Adding the equivalent paragraph on spells:

Any spell that makes attacks count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage automatically counts as +2 if the spell is cast in a fourth level slot or higher, and as +3 if the spell is cast in a sixth level slot or higher.

Examples:
* Holy Weapon is a 5th level spell. It counts as a +2 weapon. Its description does not mention any overcasting, but that does not stop you from casting it in a 6th level slot to make it count as a +3 weapon.
* Elemental Weapon can be cast using a 3rd, 5th and 7th level slot and counts as +1, +2 and +3, respectively. It can also be cast using a 4th or 6th level slot - this affects the DR but not the attack bonus and bonus damage.
* Shillelagh is a cantrip and so can't be upgrade to overcome paragon or epic resistance (unless the DM makes a houserule to let it scale with character level)
* Plenty of spells doesn't make the weapon magical. This remains true no matter what slot level is used. For some of these spells, it doesn't matter, since all damage is energy and thus DR does not apply.


The total rules addition becomes:

Any class feature that makes attacks count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage are automatically upgraded one step (to +2, then to +3) for every five character levels above the level where the ability is first attainable.

Example: The pact blade of the Blade Pact Warlock counts as magical at level 3. It thus counts as a +2 blade (for purposes of overcoming DR) at character level 8 and as a +3 blade at character level 13.

Any spell that makes attacks count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage automatically counts as +2 if the spell is cast in a fourth level slot or higher, and as +3 if the spell is cast in a sixth level slot or higher.

Example: The weapon targeted by the Elemental Weapon spell counts as a +2 weapon (for purposes of overcoming DR) when cast using a 4th or 5th level slot, and as a +3 weapon when cast using a 6th or higher level slot.

Additionally, the new spell Magic Fang is added to the spell list of Rangers and Druids. It works exactly like Magic Weapon in every respect, including the inability to enchant already enchanted targets, except it targets a creature with natural weapons or unarmed strikes. (Touch your bear animal companion to enchant its Bite and Claw attacks)