Tiers Excerpt (merged)

[Shroomy]

Utility powers aren't replaced by newer powers. You still remember the ones from before.

So, does anyone see anything game breaking with characters remembering their old encounter and daily powers? The more I think about it, the more I think this is going to be a hard line house rule for me.

IMO, I don't think it is really necessary to keep the old powers, because in my view, they didn't really go away, instead they are subsumed by the more powerful exploits, spells, and prayers. Since 4e powers are constructed in a modular fashion, its useful to think of lower level powers providing the building blocks for higher level powers, even if their progression doesn't seem immediately obvious.

 

[Stormtalon]

"I attack the gypsy woman."

DM: Just as you start to raise your arm to attack her, she looks at you with a piercing gaze and speaks quietly, "You may want to reconsider that. An old gypsy woman, alone in her wagon with her crystal ball has plenty of time to look into the sea of future events and prepare for a young, foolish bravo such as yourself. Following the waves of what you contemplate doing, your future seems surprisingly short, even in those ripples where you leave this wagon alive and with what you desire."

Oh, good god, yes. Please sir, may I have some more? Hmmm, alternately:

"Think ye that this will grant all which you desire? It may not end as ye wish. I could tell ye the tale of a young woman many years ago who acted as ye. A woman who found herself tied by fate to the object of her murderous greed and bound to its wishes. I ask ye, then -- would ye take her place? If ye would then swing true -- I tire of this curse."

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

One of the issues might be that the exceptional powers appear relatively quickly in previous editions. Speak with Dead pops up with no cost at 5th level, but of course a scroll of it could be purchased earlier.

I know we're getting way off topic here, but Pushing Daisies is a great example of having something like Speak with Dead and it still being only marginally helpful when solving a murder. So there are definitely interesting ways of using the tropes of the world.

But your point remains: it's difficult to deal with things like that. What's nice about ritual magic is that, even if the prerequisites for the speak with dead ritual are only 1000 gp, because the system is separate from the allotment of PC combat abilities, it may be easier to work in other kinds of restrictions. So the ritual might involve:

- sprinkling 1000 gp of ivory dust on the dead body
- some blood from the deceased's relative
- the tongue of a ghoul

Then these things have to be acquired, and getting them is an adventure in and of itself. The cleric doesn't simply know the spell upon reaching 5th level.

 

[FadedC]

Speak with dead never really had to foil a murder mystery if you didn't want it to. Remember that

1) The dead can't tell you what they don't know. The victim could have easily not seen his killer

2) Speak with dead often gives a cryptic answer, which may give a clue but not the whole story.

3) A killer who is afraid of a speak with dead spell can always remove or mutilate the head.

I had much more of an issue with raise dead in murder mysteries.....

 

[Lacyon]

Speak with dead never really had to foil a murder mystery if you didn't want it to. Remember that

1) The dead can't tell you what they don't know. The victim could have easily not seen his killer

2) Speak with dead often gives a cryptic answer, which may give a clue but not the whole story.

3) A killer who is afraid of a speak with dead spell can always remove or mutilate the head.

4) Turn the victim into an undead.

 

[Cadfan]

Ok, cool. Good to know! I haven't had much experience with the pregens.

No problem. The wizard wizard varied as follows: he had a collection of extra at will abilities that were basically improved versions of the more popular cantrips, and he had two per day abilities instead of one. Then he had a rule that said that these per day abilities were in his spellbook, and that every morning he prepped one and only one of them. That meant that during the day he had access to just one per day ability (like everyone else) but that he had some versatility in choosing that ability in advance, much like a 3e wizard.

We don't know yet whether a wizard can add new per day abilities to his spellbook 3e style, or whether he just picks extra per day abilities when he levels up.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

I know we're getting way off topic here, but Pushing Daisies is a great example of having something like Speak with Dead and it still being only marginally helpful when solving a murder. So there are definitely interesting ways of using the tropes of the world.

I was thinking the same thing. Of course part of the reason it is only marginally helpful most of the time is because Chuck usually spends some of the 60 seconds asking them other things about their life. Still, I have been considering using it as a model for a Speaks with Dead spell. 60 seconds, you can ask as much as you want in that time, but the person might be a bit confused and is under no magical complusion to answer the questions you might ask.

 

[AZRogue]

I suppose even low level per day and per encounter powers are usually better then at-will powers. So the problem is that you get to use more of them in each individual encounter or day, which can be game-breaking. It might work if you have some kind of "pool" from which you draw encounter powers, so in each given encounter, you can only use 3-5 of them, despite knowing all the old ones. That might be an easy house rule. (From a pure gamist perspective.)

That's true, but I'm thinking that there will be many new actions possible from magic items already (their primary purpose) so, since I'm going to be magic-item-light, it will balance out. The players, with magic items, will already have, by default, more options available than there are rounds in combat.

 

[WyzardWhately]

4) Turn the victim into an undead.

This is my favorite. Not only did the murderer kill the mayor, he turned him into a ghoul. So, you can't use your little tricks on him, but he's also eaten the household staff.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Speak with dead never really had to foil a murder mystery if you didn't want it to. Remember that

1) The dead can't tell you what they don't know. The victim could have easily not seen his killer

2) Speak with dead often gives a cryptic answer, which may give a clue but not the whole story.

3) A killer who is afraid of a speak with dead spell can always remove or mutilate the head.

I had much more of an issue with raise dead in murder mysteries.....

Don't hinge yourself up on a single spell. There are more, and murder mysteries are also not the only type of mystery (or even "plot"). You can often find ways to utilize or negate this spells to good effect, but it requires work and planning, and sometimes this work just doesn't feel justified, or is possible to do. It can also throw off people that enjoy more or less free-form adventuring, based on only a few lines filled with ideas, the rest in their head - without taking into account every spell into account while the story unravels mid-game, this can come to an unexpected, sudden end...