Tiers Excerpt (merged)

frankthedm said:
The crap in the backroom is generally superficially magical or cursed. The Golden Hairpin of illusionary Youth, The Jade Mace of Exotic Pleasuring {this is the 'backroom' after all], a -1 sword that glows like a +5 sword and other less helpful items will be found there.
That's how it works around here.

Once the players killed the vendor to steal his magic items. They found a cursed axe!
The axe attracted demons every time it was used.
The axe was so cursed that no matter what they did to get rid of it, the axe managed to return to them.
One of the players had the smart idea to pack the axe and pay an errant boy to send the package to an address on the other side of the world. It worked for some time.
The axe was so damn cursed that when we started a whole new campaign, with whole new characters (in the same setting), that player's character one day received a mysterious package at his home, coming from the other side of the world....

They never killed vendors to steal their magic items again.
 

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med stud said:
I absolutely LOVE that the anabola is out of the arts! Looking at the woman with the hammer in the picture, she has large arms, but there is no spandex- clothing revealing ripped biceps! I had a large problem with that in the 3e art, that almost all male specimens of the humanoid kind had body builder muscles. If the art will look like that in the future, I'll be happy as a clam!

Just so long as the art does not start reflecting what the players look like! That's a bit too much verisimilitude for my tastes.

btw I thought the new pit fiend art on the other article was really quite good and I have not thought the same of some of the other 4ed monsters. He just looks more dangerous.
 

I'm running an Eberron cop game set in Sharn. The cops are 6th level. They win.

It was okay when it was just stopping petty crimes, or small groups of thugs. But then I decided to have them go up against an organization who is tough and has a lot of resources: Daask, the monstrous crime syndicate, run by an ogre mage, with gnoll, medusa, harpy, and minotaur henchmen. I came up with a series of crimes they'd commit, working toward a secret goal so that I could get this nice "investigate for a while, then finally put the pieces together and crack the case" feel.

Instead, after Daask commits one crime, the cops used locate creature (lesser dragonmark of finding) and rode around in a cab until they found a gnoll. They bumrushed the guy, took him captive, and cast suggestion on him:

"Answer all our questions fully and truthfully."

Gnoll fails his save. They find out where a few of the hide-outs of Daask are, who the next up the totem pole is, where he likes to go, and what his powers are. They also get a sense of what Daask is up to, but the gnoll only knows so much.

I'm okay at this point. Sure, they got a lot more information about the bad guys than I wanted them to have yet, but they're being creative. I'm cool with it.

Then they go to where they know the gnoll leader goes -- a place where he's vulnerable. They use disguise self to get close to him, and they catch him and his cronies by surprise, and take them prisoner. They cast suggestion on the leader, and then learn pretty much the full scoop on Daask's plans.

Now, I have no problem with the PCs winning. That's what they're supposed to do. And they still have to deal with just the raw manpower of Daask, and its leaders, who don't come out to the surface of the city, but instead stay in the tunnels below. So I've still got adventures I can run, even if I have to scrap my original ideas.

But here's the problem. The players ask me, "Why hasn't Daask already been disposed of?"

The Sharn sourcebook sets up Daask as this mobile, hard to pin down group of monster who hide around the city. But in two days, with just a couple of spells and a mere five cops, the Sharn watch has figured out pretty much all they need to know. Now they just need to get support from the military to go root out this terrorist cell.

Of course, I've got tricks up my sleeve. I'm going to have Daask attack the cops at their homes, threaten them, and try to intimidate them to give up. The PCs won't be able to get the rest of the cops on their side, because the cops aren't heroes; they aren't going to risk their lives, especially when Daask usually just terrorizes poor folks. The PCs will be on their own.

So the spells aren't bad, but they change things.

Now if the PCs had scry and teleport, they would already have scrysassinated the leaders of Daask, decapitating the organization so they're no longer a threat. At 6th level I can handle it, but 9th level would drive me nuts.
 

AZRogue said:
So, does anyone see anything game breaking with characters remembering their old encounter and daily powers? The more I think about it, the more I think this is going to be a hard line house rule for me.

I can't say whether or not it'll be balanced (I'm betting it won't be), but I've gotta repeat what the martial arts guy said before- you forget old skills awfully, awfully fast once you learn new ones in real life. Back in college, the accepted term for this was the semesterly "memory dump." Is that Analog Fields and Waves class related to any classes you're taking this semester? No? Okay, then you'll forget about 80% of it halfway through the quarter. I think I got an A in that class my junior year. By my senior year I knew what a Smith chart looked like, but couldn't work one if my life depended on it. Right now I only remember the name because I remember thinking that a Smith Chart looked like something plucked straight out of Ri'Lyeh.
 

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
But I don't think they will focus much onto it. 3E had epic levels, and how much supplemental material did exist for that? How many epic adventures where published? It might also be notable that the 3.0 Epic Level handbook was integrated in the 3.5 DMG. Maybe they determined the market is just not big enough, and introduced it as a small boon for the few that like it, as a motivation to go 3.5...

I am having a vision of the future.... a blasted hellscape... the internet 2 years from now.. the first video game inspired by 4ed has been released and it's message board is full of posts along the lines of "i am thinking of getting this game, what is the level cap because I want to play a long time" "You can get up to 30 in DnD but this game goes from 1 to 15" "WHAT??? I can get to 110 in WoW, what a rip off!"


Not that that means they should have levels beyond 30 (they should not, if you have more content you fit it into the existing levels to avoid more bookkeeping for the sake of big numbers) I just wanted to share my horrific vision with you.
 

RangerWickett said:
But here's the problem. The players ask me, "Why hasn't Daask already been disposed of?"


Excellent question. I'd say a good answer is that there's rampant corruption and intimidation in the police force. The bad guys have access to those same spells. When the families of their brother cops start to suffer, and they're betrayed by other cops on the take (who they had trusted!) and they get attacked by assassin-doppelgangers who earn their trust and split them up to try and pick them off individually...etc., well, then they'll know why no one has already taken down Daask.

Play dirty pool, oh my brother.
 


WyzardWhately said:
Excellent question. I'd say a good answer is that there's rampant corruption and intimidation in the police force. The bad guys have access to those same spells. When the families of their brother cops start to suffer, and they're betrayed by other cops on the take (who they had trusted!) and they get attacked by assassin-doppelgangers who earn their trust and split them up to try and pick them off individually...etc., well, then they'll know why no one has already taken down Daask.

Play dirty pool, oh my brother.
That's doable if the police in that town plays by the rules of a Western democracy. In Italy, Mussolini broke the Mafia. Traditionally, the Mafia ran to the hills when the police came and noone dared/wanted to say where they went. Mussolini's men rounded up the Mafia- guys' wives and children, threatening to shoot them if the Mafia-men didn't come to meet them.

The lesson is that if you play as dirty as the criminals, you beat them unless the criminals are stronger. If the criminals are stronger than the authorities, they most likely will be the new authority pretty soon.

I can see Ranger Wicket's problem. He wanted a criminal organization that runs from the cops, not one that makes the cops run from it (correct me if I'm wrong, Wicket).
 

AZRogue said:
Utility powers aren't replaced by newer powers. You still remember the ones from before.

So, does anyone see anything game breaking with characters remembering their old encounter and daily powers? The more I think about it, the more I think this is going to be a hard line house rule for me.

If you can use them all? Certainly, yes. You will be doing more damage most of the time with added effects. If their just written down in a wizard's spellbook/fighter's manuever book or what have you, as weird as some of that is conceptually... probably not, as long as your limited to only using 1/2/3/4 per encounter (as appropriate for the level).
 

RangerWickett said:
But here's the problem. The players ask me, "Why hasn't Daask already been disposed of?"
I'd give them two answers, one flippant, and the other serious.

The flippant one: watch any police action movie that's ever been made and ask the same question. I just watched Man on Fire last weekend (the one with Denzell Washington). Once he sets his mind to it, he manages to bring down an entire kidnapping crime syndicate operating in Mexico city in about 72 hours. That's pretty slow: look at old standards like Beverly Hills Cop and Lethal Weapon and see how much time they spend figuring out the plot.

The serious one: the characters are heroes, and don't spend a lot of time thinking about their future and their lives and families. Taking down an organization with powerful monsters working for it is dangerous. Extremely dangerous to someone with only NPC levels. So while you could go after the big bads and risk your life, why not take out the low-hanging fruit instead? It may be touching on political issues (and thus be a no-no) but I would argue that is how policing works in the real world as well.

So let the characters win and be successful, but over time their opponents will figure out their tricks and come up with countermeasures for them.

--Steve
 

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