Tiers Excerpt (merged)

[Kordeth]

"Dexterity modifier damage" is clear and straightforward only if it means what it used to in 3.5. Looking at stat blocks, however, seems to suggest very strongly that the modifier itself scales with level, which means the damage does as well.

Actually, it's highly unlikely that the ability score modifier is directly scaled and far more likely that you simply get a bonus equal to 1/2 your level on certain rolls. Whether one of those rolls is damage for PCs remains to be seen, but unless you're suggesting that a 30th level rogue can trick someone into "stumbling" over 100 feet, or a fighter can throw down 20 extra damage without making an attack roll every round, I don't think you can say the stat modifier scales with level.

 

[Alraiis]

Actually, it's highly unlikely that the ability score modifier is directly scaled and far more likely that you simply get a bonus equal to 1/2 your level on certain rolls. Whether one of those rolls is damage for PCs remains to be seen, but unless you're suggesting that a 30th level rogue can trick someone into "stumbling" over 100 feet, or a fighter can throw down 20 extra damage without making an attack roll every round, I don't think you can say the stat modifier scales with level.

It's a possibility, anyway. I'm only saying we don't know what we don't know. I'll admit the 20-square rogue "shove" you describe is a bit silly, but on the other hand it doesn't seem entirely out of line for the god-confronting 30th level characters.

 

[Hella_Tellah]

"Dexterity modifier damage" is clear and straightforward only if it means what it used to in 3.5. Looking at stat blocks, however, seems to suggest very strongly that the modifier itself scales with level, which means the damage does as well.

For instance, the Malebranche's Wisdom is listed as "19 (+15)". A base score of 19 gives a base modifier of +4 (just like in 3.x). Then half its level (22/2 = 11) is added for a total of +15. So a 22nd level rogue with a Dex of 19 would have that same +15 modifier; whereas a 1st level rogue with a Dex of 19 would only have a +4. Thus, damage scales with level to the extent that abilitity score modifiers increase with level. This would fit with the vague information in the Paladin article, without contradicting the specific language in the rogue article.

I think you're misreading it. The parenthetical figure is obviously (Ability-10)/2+(level)/2, but I don't think that indicates that all rolls with that particular ability have that hefty bonus. I think the figure is there to remind you of what the creature rolls on untrained skills tied to that ability.

 

[small pumpkin man]

"Dexterity modifier damage" is clear and straightforward only if it means what it used to in 3.5. Looking at stat blocks, however, seems to suggest very strongly that the modifier itself scales with level, which means the damage does as well.

For instance, the Malebranche's Wisdom is listed as "19 (+15)". A base score of 19 gives a base modifier of +4 (just like in 3.x). Then half its level (22/2 = 11) is added for a total of +15. So a 22nd level rogue with a Dex of 19 would have that same +15 modifier; whereas a 1st level rogue with a Dex of 19 would only have a +4. Thus, damage scales with level to the extent that abilitity score modifiers increase with level. This would fit with the vague information in the Paladin article, without contradicting the specific language in the rogue article.

If this was true, the bit talking about higher level characters wouldn't say "calculate your ... Armor Class, defenses, initiative, base attack bonuses and damage bonuses, and skill modifiers.", because they'd allready be calculated, they'd allready be a part of the stat, it would also mean the term "base attack bonus" probably wouldn't exist.

 

[shilsen]

But here's the problem. The players ask me, "Why hasn't Daask already been disposed of?"

The Sharn sourcebook sets up Daask as this mobile, hard to pin down group of monster who hide around the city. But in two days, with just a couple of spells and a mere five cops, the Sharn watch has figured out pretty much all they need to know. Now they just need to get support from the military to go root out this terrorist cell.

Of course, I've got tricks up my sleeve. I'm going to have Daask attack the cops at their homes, threaten them, and try to intimidate them to give up. The PCs won't be able to get the rest of the cops on their side, because the cops aren't heroes; they aren't going to risk their lives, especially when Daask usually just terrorizes poor folks. The PCs will be on their own.

So the spells aren't bad, but they change things.

Now if the PCs had scry and teleport, they would already have scrysassinated the leaders of Daask, decapitating the organization so they're no longer a threat. At 6th level I can handle it, but 9th level would drive me nuts.

Sounds to me like you're being way easy on your PCs. Here's a situation that actually happened in my game. Four 11th level PCs (all very buff, with especially high stats and wealth equivalent to that recommended for 13th level characters) attack a Daask drug den for sh*ts and giggles. This Daask drug den is well-defended, with the presence of a raiding party that is going to attack a Boromar holding, but still only has an Adept8, two ogre Bbn1/Ftr2s and a bunch of elite gnolls (3 lvls each, so CR 4s).

The result? Two captured PCs (one going below -10) and two wounded PCs fleeing in terror, with the captured ones having to make an agreement to not bother Daask in order to get out alive.

It's not the level of your spells - it's what you do with them

 

[Alraiis]

If this was true, the bit talking about higher level characters wouldn't say "calculate your ... Armor Class, defenses, initiative, base attack bonuses and damage bonuses, and skill modifiers.", because they'd allready be calculated, they'd allready be a part of the stat, it would also mean the term "base attack bonus" probably wouldn't exist.

Again, I admit I may well be wrong. The whole basis of my theory comes from my own pre-conceived 3rd Edition assumptions (namely, that the number in the parentheses is an ability modifer and that monsters and PCs use the same rules for modifiers).

However, these things wouldn't "already be calculated," as you'd still have to add bonuses from race, class, or feat selection, as well as magic items. That's why it's near the end of the process.

 

[hong]

I get pretty tired of GMs complaining that this spell or that spell "ruins their plot." You know what the solution to that is? Don't have a plot. Have compelling NPCs and organizations and whatnot in the world who are trying to do varying things. Trap the PCs in the middle and let them make their own decisions, and find their own solutions. If you need the characters to follow your plot, or else everything is going to be "ruined," then go write a novel.

I cannot count how many GMs I've seen try to bring the hammer down on the PCs at every turn to preserve some half-assed "story" that wouldn't have held up in a ThunderCats episode.

Plot has nothing to do with it. You can replace "ruin my plot" with "destroy the challenge" and the problem would be exactly the same.

 

[DandD]

Well, depends if you consider "destroy the challenge" being equal as "overcome the challenge"... I wouldn't try to preserve any plot at all, and if you're going to play 4th edition, they make it clear that at paragon and epic level, those are exactly the ressources the player characters are presumed to have, and one should account for.

My advice is to simply follow on.

 

[Henry]

However, these things wouldn't "already be calculated," as you'd still have to add bonuses from race, class, or feat selection, as well as magic items. That's why it's near the end of the process.

...and the ability score increases, which WOULD increase damage, if it were in STR. We still don't have a definitive on the "+1/2 level to dmg" thing.

 

[breschau]

I'm so glad that WotC learned something from WoW. Just like in previous editions of D&D, WoW has far too many spells at higher levels. Yes, spells are upgraded as you gain levels, but there are just too many of them.

I love that you replace lower level powers with higher level ones. It makes things so much simpler and straight forward. In a given encounter you're not having to look up the effects of a massive amount of spells which you should cast. You have the same spells for a few levels, then swap out a lower level one, you have those for a few levels, lather, rinse, repeat.

I imagine it would be so much easier to know exactly what you can do. Rituals I'm sure are a different story, but still.

This makes me so happy.