Time to Brag - We whupped the main villain 13 levels too soon!

[RangerWickett]

This was the second time we'd seen the BBEG (Big Bad Evil Guy), but only the first time we fougth him. The first time we saw him, we were only 3rd level, and we were in disguise. Donovan was headed after another character who, according to the prophecy, was supposed to help us. We watched from hiding as Donovan took out a large group of bodyguards and the ally we never got a chance to meet. Then he spotted us, realized who we were, and headed for us.

Thankfully an ally with us was able to teleport us away, and I guess the bad guy's Order weren't scrying on us just yet then. The second time around we managed to take him by surprise with how powerful (read: lucky) we were, and if we have to fight him again, we'll probably be captured.

But yes, what can we learn from this encounter to have better DMing and better Player-ing?

DMs should assume high-level warriors are used to fighting flying foes, and probably have ways to chase them without having to rely on teleporting above them. Though that was cool.

PCs should not become part of a prophecy until they are strong enough to fend off the main bad guys, or at least until they have anti-scrying magic.

The PC Dwarf should get 5 more hit points.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Wrong. Your attitude isn't surprising, though. Most DMs don't realize Fighters shouldn't just "beat the crap out of everyone". Fighters should utilize tactics just like everyone else. A single Fighter has a plethora of combat options available to him, and they vary greatly from Fighter to Fighter. This Fighter didn't do anything but charge in and try to "beat the crap out of everyone", and he got wasted because of it. I doubt I'd ever see a DM play a 20th level Wizard or Rogue this stupidly. [/B]

Sorry I'm right. Fact is at high levels the only really effective tactic a fighter has is beat the crap out of them. Virtually all the other amazing options are stat test, and while a 20th elvel peosn can expcet to outstat a 7th level person the rang eof success is way to small comapred to a simple full attack which will devaste your opponents. I jsut hope my DMS waste actions with thigns like trip, bull rush and all the other astounding combat options a fighter has available. It will give em a ton more chances to kick the crap out of the NPC. And rogues and wizarda hve 1000s of more options which is why they look better tactically. Its not smart or dumb, tis jsut available resources that are even modeately effective.

You have got to be joking. A Fighter without ranged weapons MUST have fly later in levels, unless he plans to teleport and ATTEMPT to grapple the Colossal Red Dragon as it hovers above and blasts the party with it's breath weapon and spells. A melee Fighter requires fly to close in on ranged threats that fly themselves, or he's worthless.

Again who says he had no ranged weapons. He jsut didn't sue them since in this situation a ranged weapon would of been worse tactics.

Grappling mages is ineffective in most cases. It has a few specific situations where it's great, but mostly you're better off just unleashing a FRA and killing them. Almost no Mage can withstand a high level fighters FRA. Regardless, my point was what kind of Fighter doesn't have fly if he doesn't at LEAST have ranged weapons? How the hell is he going to deal with flying, ranged threats? The Fighter was played badly, and the party capitalized on it. Smart, but their victory was as much due to the DMs follies as their own effeciency.

A grapple is absurdly effective vs mages it virtually shuts them down,(no S/m spells must be pure V and it still requires a otugh concentration check) and you can proceed to do full attacks 1 round later while they are grappled. And a full attack vs a prepared mage with things like stone skin will likely not kill him. Hurt a lot yes, kill no. You grapple them so they are shut down, and then you kill them.

And agian who says no ranged weapons, they just would of been innefective in this situation. The fighter was played perfectly fine, despite your 20/20 hindsigtr naysaying.

 

[RangerWickett]

I forgot to mention that our barbarian-bard specializes in telling dirty jokes. I obviously can't post any of them in their entirety, but as Donovan rushed in to attack, the blind bard dropped a darkness spell on himself, then tried to 'inspire courage' by saying a dirty joke.

"What did the noblewoman from Caliban do when she got to the ball?"

The DM tells him to make a Perform check, and simultaneously he makes the attack rolls for Donovan. The bard's player rolls a 4, and Donovan deals 40 some-odd damage. After this sour turn of events, all the bard can say is:

"Sh*t."

 

[LuYangShih]

Sorry I'm right. Fact is at high levels the only really effective tactic a fighter has is beat the crap out of them. Virtually all the other amazing options are stat test, and while a 20th elvel peosn can expcet to outstat a 7th level person the rang eof success is way to small comapred to a simple full attack which will devaste your opponents. I jsut hope my DMS waste actions with thigns like trip, bull rush and all the other astounding combat options a fighter has available. It will give em a ton more chances to kick the crap out of the NPC. And rogues and wizarda hve 1000s of more options which is why they look better tactically. Its not smart or dumb, tis jsut available resources that are even modeately effective.

Do you understand what tactics are? I'm not talking about the special options a Fighter has, I'm talking of simple effective placement of abilities and attacks. Look at the way the Fighter reacted to the players. According to RangerWickett, the rest of the group couldn't even hit the guy, while he was being bombarded from on high by the Wizard.

But, instead of teleporting up to the Wizard (apparently his only option, since he didn't have fly for some unknown reason) he mucks around with the ground troops who are barely touching him. A lack of tactical intelligence in the greatest degree.

Again who says he had no ranged weapons. He jsut didn't sue them since in this situation a ranged weapon would of been worse tactics.

How so? He could've taken out the Wizard much faster and more effectively than his "death from above" tactic.

A grapple is absurdly effective vs mages it virtually shuts them down,(no S/m spells must be pure V and it still requires a otugh concentration check) and you can proceed to do full attacks 1 round later while they are grappled.

It shuts down stupid Wizards. Any time I've ever seen a grapple actually pulled off against a Wizard (which is rare), they usually have a Teleport or other such spell prepared that gets them out of it. And, like I said, it's very difficult to even get the grapple against smart Wizards.

And a full attack vs a prepared mage with things like stone skin will likely not kill him. Hurt a lot yes, kill no. You grapple them so they are shut down, and then you kill them.

Not in my experience. FRA on a properly built Fighter will any equal or lower level Wizards with no problems.

And agian who says no ranged weapons, they just would of been innefective in this situation. The fighter was played perfectly fine, despite your 20/20 hindsigtr naysaying.

No, he wasn't. He made incredibly stupid decisions several times. He went after the wrong characters, he didn't equip himself properly, he didn't retreat and regroup when he should have, he started combat off the wrong way, etc. He still might've won, but the party was played intelligently and they capitalized on his mistakes. Well done on their part, but it doesn't make the Fighters gaffes any less disgusting. Anyway, I'm done with this topic, there's no point in arguing this anymore.

 

[Sixchan]

What if this fighter's intelligence is, like, 5?

 

[Forrester]

Sounds like LuYang is Bothered About Disposable Fighters .

I have to agree with him, though. Fly increases your movement speed and means you don't have to spend an action teleporting around . . . it's a good call, any way you slice it. This fighter was, quite frankly, a bit of a nimrod.

I am also praying that he had something taking up his Brooch/Amulet slot . . . because if he went into combat with known mages without a Brooch of Shielding . . . well, like I said. Nimrod.

It's fun to take down/chase away 16th level baddies with a 7th level party. Just as it's fun to kill Great Gold Wyrms when you're 5th level, or kill Thor with a Push spell.

That doesn't mean it's not kinda dumb .

 

[Wippit Guud]

Either Traps and Treachery or Song and Silence (can't remeber which), has a trap specifically with two teleport gates, one on the ceiling, one on the floor, so that the target continuously falls until he reaches terminal velocity, and the bottom gate shuts off.


Now, whichever book it's in determines if it's official or not.

 

[Darkness]

Congratulations to your victory, Ranger Wickett & crew!

Sorry for the bad sentance construction, I'm writing this at 3:26 A.M.

It wasn't bad IMO.
Besides, I'm quite guilty of that kind of thing myself.

Oh, and welcome to the boards!

 

[WizarDru]

I am also praying that he had something taking up his Brooch/Amulet slot . . . because if he went into combat with known mages without a Brooch of Shielding . . . well, like I said. Nimrod.

You mean he'll become an emperor and then ascend to godhood, all for forgetting to wear a brooch?

I'm glad they had fun. It's pretty obvious that the fighter nearly wiped the floor with them, and but for a mistake on the DM's part, would have. It also sounds like this fighter wasn't carrying the full g.p. allotment for a character of his level. If that weapon was anywhere's near as powerful as it should have been, there wouldn't have been any 'nearly-dead' and 'barely alives'. There would have been corpses and the unconscious.

As for the wizard...if the fighter was properly equipped, then most of the wizard's spells shouldn't have been much of a threat, anyhow.

I'm glad to hear the RW's DM didn't meatgame the villain, or take away their hard-earned victory...regardless of how much pain will arrive tomorrow. They deserve kudos for playing it out, and having fun doing it, IMHO.

 

[Utrecht]

We actually only hit him a couple of times. I think his AC was something like 32 (how the heck would he have had an AC in the low 40s, as someone suggested?), and the only times we hit him he was either flanked, or tripped (touch attacks are easy), or he had just charged.

First and foremost, congratulation for taking him out. I do not think people are naysaying you. They are questioing how a 20th level fighter got himself in this position.

As far as AC Goes. I would assume that a 20th level fighter would have the following (assume that he is a 2 handed weapon user i.e. no shield)

Full Plate +5 - +13 (IIRC Full Plate is +8)
Amulate of Natural Armor +4 or +5 + +18
Ring of Protection +4 or +5 + 22
Dex Bonus +2 - +24
Boots of Speed - +28 (The extra partial action is nice as well)

For an AC of at least 38 - throw in some sort of Luck Bonus and it could get to 40.

Second, since he was a Two-handed weopon fighter, I would hope that he would have disarmed/sundered the fighters weapons.

Thirdly, how much damage was the wizard doing? I ask this because I would assume that he had HPs in the 160 range and taking 20 points a round from a wizard should have given him plenty of time to subdue the ground-pounders.

Again, that being said, your party did great!! This is to take nothing away from you, but like the others said, it is disturbing when the BBEG is not played to thier potential - even subduing....