D&D 5E Time to switch from Wis to Cha for representing Willpower

[Li Shenron]

Let's talk about it seriously...

Willpower is basically the only aspect of Wisdom which doesn't match with the other aspects of "awareness, perception, common sense and intuition". All these aspects are essentially "passive" while willpower is a "proactive" ability of the subject.

Charisma represents "force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness" all of which except the last one are "proactive" qualities.

Willpower sounds a lot similar to force of personality applied to yourself rather than to someone else!

Making this change will have also positive effects to reviewing spells saving throws so that many spells with Wis ST can be changed to Cha ST, meaning that Wis will be less dominating.

 

[delericho]

Willpower sounds a lot similar to force of personality applied to yourself rather than to someone else!

Hmm, funny. I clicked on the thread thinking, "not only no, but hell no!"... only to see this. Food for thought, certainly.

In all honesty, I'm really not convinced that perception should really be part of Wisdom - thanks to playing in a band, I've encountered more than a few people with truly exceptional hearing, some of whom I really can't credit with any great Wisdom.

And, frankly, the sooner we can drop any relationship between Charisma and physical attractiveness, the better.

 

[RangerWickett]

Yeah, it is an odd mix when you say Charisma = pretty and Charisma = strong willpower. Because Lindsay Lohan, for one easy example.

 

[am181d]

Yeah, it is an odd mix when you say Charisma = pretty and Charisma = strong willpower. Because Lindsay Lohan, for one easy example.

I don't know that I've ever played in a game where it was assumed there was a 1:1 correspondence between Charisma and physical attractiveness. The assumption has always been that appearance can play into (or against) overall Charisma and was thus "factored in". But you could easily have an ugly Orc with a high Charisma or a beautiful maiden with a super low Charisma.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

The assumption has always been that appearance can play into (or against) overall Charisma and was thus "factored in".

Likewise. In our last D&D game one of the players described his character as good-looking but cold. Hence her low Charisma score.

 

[cmbarona]

I'd support it, though in Next at least, there's currently no such thing as Willpower. Certain arguments can be made that Willpower could be represented by Wisdom, but given my traditional understanding of the two Abilities, I don't think I could give a full representation of those arguments. I get the feeling that some of it comes from the traditional association of what I'll call "Religiousness" with Wisdom because of Clerics. One could argue (and some Religions do argue) that Discipline, and therefore Willpower, can be gained and reinforced by Religiousness. How to represent that in the form of inherent abilities is always an issue, though. Cases can be made as any of the three mental abilities representing Religiousness: Intelligence through rigorous study of the divine, Wisdom through deeper understanding of the value and purpose of life, and Charisma through growing force of personality frequently exhibited by religious leaders (note that "charism-" is Greek for "spirit").
Given all this, if one were to develop a Willpower score tied to a specific ability, I think it would behoove WotC to step back and ask which of those three best represents Willpower apart from association with Religiousness, and give divine classes some sort of Willpower bonus. My answer would be Charisma.

P.S.: I'm also in favor of separating Charisma from is "pretty" definition, and Wisdom from its "perceptive" definition.

 

[Umbran]

No, thanks. There's way, way too many examples of highly charismatic people who cannot resist a temptation to save their lives, often quite literally. Being charismatic has squat-all to do with having personal willpower or enlightenment. Charisma is about *outward* expression of personality, not inner strength.

 

[The Choice]

I could see it working. If you assume Charisma symbolizes strength of personnality, effects that go against your internal view of yourself could target it. On the other hand, if Wisdom reflects your capacity to correctly perceive the world around you, effects that alter or dull this could target that ability instead.

(This is assuming the 3.X/4E definitions for those ability scores are still valid, of course).

 

[Li Shenron]

I'd support it, though in Next at least, there's currently no such thing as Willpower.

No, but all spells that presumably are resisted by willpower require a Wis ST.

No, thanks. There's way, way too many examples of highly charismatic people who cannot resist a temptation to save their lives, often quite literally.

There are also way too many examples of highly perceptive people who are neither willpowerful nor "wise" in the biblical sense.

 

[delericho]

I don't know that I've ever played in a game where it was assumed there was a 1:1 correspondence between Charisma and physical attractiveness. The assumption has always been that appearance can play into (or against) overall Charisma and was thus "factored in". But you could easily have an ugly Orc with a high Charisma or a beautiful maiden with a super low Charisma.

No indeed. But I'm in favour of removing it entirely from the attribute. Probably due to one too many instances of players declaring that their low-Cha character was just a bit ugly... and proceeding to utterly ignore their dump stat for the remainder of the campaign.

(Besides, if physical beauty is factored in, then when the hideous crone uses alter self to be revealed as a beautiful enchantress (or the opposite), shouldn't she get a boost to Cha to go with it?)