D&D 5E Time to switch from Wis to Cha for representing Willpower

MJS

First Post
Let's look at Sanity : what does it measure? A character's mental stability and capacity to withstand psychological trauma? Let's say that's our working definition of it. Why is it not a resource, then? Like HP. See something you can't rationalize? Roll Intelligence save (to use D&DNext parlance). Succeed, and walk away unscathed (or less scathed, depending on the genre you're trying to emulate), fail and suffer the loss of San points.

As for Luck, I could argue that Action Points are a partial reflection of that, and have been present in the game (if not always as a default assumption) for two editions.

So yeah, compared to Strength (physical strength in D&D being a massive abstraction), or Constitution or Dexterity (relfexes, hand-eye coordination, fine motor skill, all things that don't necessarily come in a package), they are very narrow.



Subsystems are cool, I think, but with six ability scores already, I feel you can do more with different resources for PCs to use than trying to cram more into an already crowded box. At the end of the day though, D&D is better served with a unified mechanic, and subsystems that plug into it to complement it.



It kinda does. Ever been rock-climbing? Part of developing the skills to climb rocky surfaces is developing the strength, endurance, and muscle memory to perform the task. In D&D-speak, being good at climbing (AKA having ranks in the skill/being trained in the skill) should mean you have the strength to practice the activity. In reality, from 3rd edition onward, if you roll up an 8 Str rogue, that skill rating is going to suck proportional to what it should be (and compared to a 2nd edition thief, for exemple).

The intersection of physical stats and skills is where it's most obvious, but even with mental attributes it can get wonky.



Ah yes, an attribute presented in a non-core rulebook, referenced a few times, and then dropped from the following editions sure has endured the test of time...

The problem with comeliness is the same as with every other ability score : what does it represent? With strength, you can have an objective reading, and say it's a general measure of muscle strength. But "beauty" really is in the eye of the beholder (no pun intended). Assigning a value to something wholly subjective is, in my opinion, not required for a game (and hasn't been required by the game since 1989, or really ever when you think about it.)

Not saying you can't make your game work with those (it's obvious you probably do), but assuming those as default assumptions in the core game would be a mistake, in my opinion.

I can work with or without such expanded ability score use, but they tend to be favored by players. Sanity, an overall measure of mental stability, is a lot of fun.
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I'm sure adding stats would cause the biggest edition war since 1989 : )
I understand the problems and limitations of Comeliness and Sanity, etc. Sanity as a stat was a lot of fun following a lot of BTS and RIFTS play. In our useage, it did function somewhat as you describe - the Sanity "stat"would go up and down a lot, usually without INT checks. Its an easy mod some players love. Others would say a dungeon is challenging enough without having a schizophrenic paladin in the mix.
D&D is a robust, easily modified engine, IMO it almost demands tinkering. 5.0 will be no different in this respect.
So I recommend that DMs tinker with it, along with the players, wherever they see a need in their games. Willpower we found especially useful for OA-based games that were mixed with rules from Palladium's Mystic China.
But I don't recommend a change at the core level - indeed the reason D&D mods so well is its base engine's simplicity.
 

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ImperatorK

First Post
I don't care what Charisma description is saying. It's a mental stat and has nothing to do with physical appearance, or at least not directly. The only way it could be related is if it would say that an attractive character is more likely to have decent Cha because being beautiful adds to your self-esteem and ego, which are part of good Cha.
Cha to Will saves is a good idea which I implemented into my 3.P games some time ago.
 
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MJS

First Post
I don't care what Charisma description is saying. It's a mental stat and has nothing to do with physical appearance, or at least not directly. The only way it could be related is if it would say that an attractive character is more likely to have decent Cha because being beautiful adds to your self-esteem and ego, which are part of good Cha.
Cha to Will saves is a good idea which I implemented into my 3.P games some time ago.
Now that's the spirit : )
Honestly, I prefer letting players choose their appearance, and vary reactions in an organic way. But if the players really like a Comeliness stat, that works too. As a DM its not a whole lot different. Rolled stat vs. chosen appearance, same general modifiers.
 

cmbarona said:
(note that "charism-" is Greek for "spirit")

In point of fact it isn't, it's Greek for "gift" or "free" (as in "costing nothing"). In Christian parlance, it refers to certain kinds of spiritual gifts, but the word refers to the gift part, not the spiritual part.

On topic, I don't think "willpower" is a well-defined enough quantity to talk about meaningfully on the scale D&D ability scores work on. I also think "Wisdom" is a terrible term for a generic attribute. (In the strict sense, it ought to be impossible to be truly wise and also thoroughly Chaotic Evil - to name just one example.)

But given we're stuck with it, I think a balanced solution that spreads mental saves between the mental ability scores is smart. The one proposed earlier, of Intelligence getting illusions and Charisma getting charms works for me.
 

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