D&D 5E Time to switch from Wis to Cha for representing Willpower

[DEFCON 1]

Every one of the six scores encompass so many disparate functions that we really shouldn't use "real life" to say what some of those functions should or shouldn't be included. After all... Dexterity covers physical agility *and* manual dexterity, and we can find all kinds of people for whom they could do gymnastics but couldn't play the piano, or could do card tricks but couldn't stand on one foot for more than a few seconds. But any one of them might have a high DEX. We just have to accept that for the game they get to have both physical and manual agility (unless we're willing to go the 2E Skills & Powers route by splitting each ability score into two pieces.)

So that being said... if WIS does in fact have way too many saving throws attributed to it, and both INT and CHA are being underserved... moving something like Willpower to CHA in order to give that ability a bit more oomph for what it can do... I think for the game is a net positive.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

I tend to associate Wisdom with intuition and beneficial habits, and Charisma with a sense of self and an understanding of people.

Willpower as the ability to resist temptation is more about wisdom. It isn't even willpower at all. It's recognizing temptation and avoiding it. But willpower as the ability to keep going when it hurts? That's force of personality, or charisma.

For example. A wise duke has a deep sense of honor and chivalry. When tempted by a shady offer, he becomes angry, and shouts the scoundrel out of his hall. His code of honor is his wisdom. It told him that something was wrong. But it was his charisma that he used to overcome the temptation.

 

[Umbran]

There are also way too many examples of highly perceptive people who are neither willpowerful nor "wise" in the biblical sense.

That's an argument to have perception be under some other stat, not for internal willpower to be under Charisma. The original Unearthed Arcana had rules for Perception to be its own stat, didn't it? And I can see an argument for having perception be an aspect of Intelligence.

But, really, while the placement of functions has to make some vague intuitive sense, it also has to be an issue of stat-balance. As in, don't make one stat an obvious dump-stat.

 

[delericho]

That's an argument to have perception be under some other stat, not for internal willpower to be under Charisma. The original Unearthed Arcana had rules for Perception to be its own stat, didn't it?

I've just checked, and it has rules for Comeliness but not for a Perception stat*. I also checked the 2nd Ed "Skills & Powers" book, and despite having two subabilities for each ability it still doesn't have a Perception sub-ability.

* Unless I missed it, of course!

 

[Wulfgar76]

I mostly agree with OPs reasoning. As I've said before I'd like to see:

Charisma - resists - charms, domination and compulsions (anything that overcomes your personality)
Intelligence - resists - illusions (effects that 'fool' the brain with false perceptions)
Wisdom - resists - everything else non-physical (hold person, stunning the mind, mental fortitude etc.)

 

[Umbran]

I've just checked, and it has rules for Comeliness but not for a Perception stat*.

I think I found it - the variant was in Dragon Magazine, #133.

 

[messy]

And, frankly, the sooner we can drop any relationship between Charisma and physical attractiveness, the better.

yes, because physical attractiveness is largely subjective.

I mostly agree with OPs reasoning. As I've said before I'd like to see:

Charisma - resists - charms, domination and compulsions (anything that overcomes your personality)
Intelligence - resists - illusions (effects that 'fool' the brain with false perceptions)
Wisdom - resists - everything else non-physical (hold person, stunning the mind, mental fortitude etc.)

wow, that makes perfect sense.

maybe ability scores and saving throws will get an overhaul without concern for sacred cows in d&d 6th edition.

 

[Blackwarder]

I never understood how, while moving from 2e to 3e, Wisdom changed from being the inner power and connection to the gods ability to the ability that is a basically also about how keen is your eyesight or your sense of smell...

Seemed to me that while trying to build a skill system they ended up with a toss up of what ability should be the main ability for perception checks and ended up using Wisdom, which led to the clerics in my first 3e group being the best trap finding and watchmen in the group.

Warder

 

[Umbran]

Seemed to me that while trying to build a skill system they ended up with a toss up of what ability should be the main ability for perception checks and ended up using Wisdom, which led to the clerics in my first 3e group being the best trap finding and watchmen in the group.

I suspect wanting Druids and Rangers to have decent Wisdom scores, and to be good in perception, also played into it.

I even figure that having number of skills you get base off of Intelligence played a part - staking perception on Int would have made it somewhat too powerful a stat for the skill-monkey characters, who also tend to want to have good perception.

 

[Zaruthustran]

I'm all for simply renaming Wisdom to Willpower. Let Wisdom be expressed through experience (inherent level bonuses to skill checks and saves) and roleplaying.

Wisdom is the traditional prime stat for clerics, and renaming to Willpower makes perfect sense. Religion as typically portrayed in D&D is all about adherence to a god's dogma, and that's Willpower all the way. Even classical religion is all about resisting temptation, obeying your god even when it's dangerous or punishing, forgiving enemies even when they've terribly wronged you, maintaining faith despite extraordinary oppression and contrary evidence. Willpower.

And, certainly in fiction and history, there have been powerful clerics who display astounding lack of wisdom. Dalai Lama notwithstanding.

As for Charisma: certainly, willpower (or rather, confidence) can be a component of Charisma, in the same way that attractiveness or a quick wit can be a component of Charisma. But none of these components need to there in order for a person to be charismatic. Tyrion Lannister is charismatic. Shrek is charismatic. Lindsay Lohan is charismatic. Robert Downey Junior is charismatic. Even Honey goddamn Booboo is charismatic. Charisma takes a million different forms; it's the indefinable "it" that Hollywood scouts and corporate recruiters look for.

If anything, you could reskin Charisma as Force of Personality. Is the character someone that the world acts upon? Or is the character someone that acts upon the world? Is the character a nobody or a somebody? A reactor, or an influencer?