D&D 5E Time to switch from Wis to Cha for representing Willpower

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Oh, the problem would be easily solved if we changed the ability scores.

No, it wouldn't. Well, not really, anyway. You can solve this particular problem, but you'd introduce other problems in its place.

What we see here is a result of needing to use generalizations, abstractions and idealizations as game stats. Pick any set of these small enough to be useful, and you'll find such issues of definition. Such is the nature of the beast.
 

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cmbarona

First Post
I'm actually hoping they keep the ability score-based saving throws and do away with "Willpower" as a concept. As has been argued, different situations could be split appropriately into different ability-based saves. The will to resist charm could fall under Charisma, the will to resist temptation could fall under Wisdom, etc. I think that should be the goal, at least. Whether they are equitably and responsibly distributing saves to spells and other situations is another matter entirely.
 

Torchlyte

First Post
I never understood how, while moving from 2e to 3e, Wisdom changed from being the inner power and connection to the gods ability to the ability that is a basically also about how keen is your eyesight or your sense of smell...

My thoughts exactly. Perception and insight are such wildly different things, they never belonged in the same category. The issue is that the quality of your senses don't fit easily into any of your other stats. If I had to pick one, it would be dexterity (grab your torches and pitchforks).

No, it wouldn't. Well, not really, anyway. You can solve this particular problem, but you'd introduce other problems in its place.

What we see here is a result of needing to use generalizations, abstractions and idealizations as game stats. Pick any set of these small enough to be useful, and you'll find such issues of definition. Such is the nature of the beast.

Most systems have flaws and drawbacks (personally I find intelligence to be a horribly ambiguous concept), but I'm confident that this one could at least be significantly improved if not for sacred cows.

To expand on my perspective of intelligence (for those who are interested), I personally distinguish between the ability to make quick decisions, the ability to generate a critical analysis, the ability to efficiently memorize things, the ability to recall them easily, and the ability to hold lots of data in your head at once. I think in today's society people will call you "smart" if you do one of those things well, and will then expect you to do the rest at an equally high level.
 
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Sadrik

First Post
I never understood how, while moving from 2e to 3e, Wisdom changed from being the inner power and connection to the gods ability to the ability that is a basically also about how keen is your eyesight or your sense of smell...

Seemed to me that while trying to build a skill system they ended up with a toss up of what ability should be the main ability for perception checks and ended up using Wisdom, which led to the clerics in my first 3e group being the best trap finding and watchmen in the group.

Warder

Ravenloft adventures and several other 2e products would have you make a Wisdom check to wake up, it was already established at that point that WIS was attributed to waking up and sensing the world around you. Note ability checks were roll under your stat.

In 1e we used for perception, average your INT and WIS and roll under. Though in 1e, there were other rules we simply did not use, 1 in 6 to find stuff was too difficult and then some classes and races had special rules for surprise which is also associated with awareness.

I am for full conversion of Wisdom to an awareness perception stat in 5e. It was ok to have overlapping stats in the other editions but now with saves the way they are I think it is very important that they be delineated very clearly. Wisdom is not it is a catchall, it has a bunch of weird stuff thrown in and swirled around - some knowledges, some perception, then willpower, then divine casting, really? That is what wisdom is?
 

urLordy

First Post
To expand on my perspective of intelligence (for those who are interested), I personally distinguish between the ability to make quick decisions, the ability to generate a critical analysis, the ability to efficiently memorize things, the ability to recall them easily, and the ability to hold lots of data in your head at once.
I have an idea for a wizard PC. He has 18 Intelligence. His critical thinking is superb, but his memory is crap. Thankfully, he has a familiar called Google, which effectively boosts his recall memory.
 


MJS

First Post
Hello ENworld, my cherry post...
I like just adding a few stats. Circa 2E we all used these:
STRENGTH INTELLIGENCE WISDOM
DEXTERITY CONSTITUTION CHARISMA
COMELINESS PERCEPTION WILLPOWER
SANITY LUCK ( this one being a d6 )

So, 10 base stats and a d6 luck points to be spent on any roll per session at player's discretion. In extensive playtesting, these 11 worked seemlessly with 1E/2E, and the players enjoyed the variant enormously. I think similar things should work fine in 5E, should anyone choose to.
 

The Choice

First Post
Hello ENworld, my cherry post...
I like just adding a few stats. Circa 2E we all used these:
STRENGTH INTELLIGENCE WISDOM
DEXTERITY CONSTITUTION CHARISMA
COMELINESS PERCEPTION WILLPOWER
SANITY LUCK ( this one being a d6 )

So, 10 base stats and a d6 luck points to be spent on any roll per session at player's discretion. In extensive playtesting, these 11 worked seemlessly with 1E/2E, and the players enjoyed the variant enormously. I think similar things should work fine in 5E, should anyone choose to.

I don't think the problem of the definition of ability scores can be solved by adding ability scores. The way I see it, we already have a problem with the fact that the scores themselves and the bonus they award are different; it's archaic, and a pointless barrier to entry, in my opinion. It's also made completely redundant because of skills. Why associate any ability score to perception? What about touch, wouldn't you be using Dexterity to feel around for a switch or something?

Also, Willpower, Perception, and Sanity are either excedingly narrow focus abilities that kind of step on the feet of other, existing ability scores. In a game with no skills or a simpler ability score/skill relations, than those might get a chance to shine, but in D&D as is (or will be, in the case of Next), they really don't have a place.

Finally, Comeliness is problematic within the operating framework of D&D : nobody cares how good you look like when you're slaying a dragon (also, every take on such an ability has always been a bit icky in my experience).
 

MJS

First Post
I don't think the problem of the definition of ability scores can be solved by adding ability scores. The way I see it, we already have a problem with the fact that the scores themselves and the bonus they award are different; it's archaic, and a pointless barrier to entry, in my opinion. It's also made completely redundant because of skills. Why associate any ability score to perception? What about touch, wouldn't you be using Dexterity to feel around for a switch or something?

Also, Willpower, Perception, and Sanity are either excedingly narrow focus abilities that kind of step on the feet of other, existing ability scores. In a game with no skills or a simpler ability score/skill relations, than those might get a chance to shine, but in D&D as is (or will be, in the case of Next), they really don't have a place.

Finally, Comeliness is problematic within the operating framework of D&D : nobody cares how good you look like when you're slaying a dragon (also, every take on such an ability has always been a bit icky in my experience).

1. In many years of play, adding the aforementioned stats was a good solution to the question asked. They are not exceedingly narrow, they actually work very well in D&D type gaming and fill in those blanks in the basic stats without being overkill.
2. I see no reason for unified mechanics, different stats can and perhaps should function differently.
3. Skill system has zero impact on relevance of ability scores.
4. Comeliness: has worked very well in D&D for decades

I can work with or without such expanded ability score use, but they tend to be favored by players. Sanity, an overall measure of mental stability, is a lot of fun.
 

The Choice

First Post
1. In many years of play, adding the aforementioned stats was a good solution to the question asked. They are not exceedingly narrow, they actually work very well in D&D type gaming and fill in those blanks in the basic stats without being overkill.

Let's look at Sanity : what does it measure? A character's mental stability and capacity to withstand psychological trauma? Let's say that's our working definition of it. Why is it not a resource, then? Like HP. See something you can't rationalize? Roll Intelligence save (to use D&DNext parlance). Succeed, and walk away unscathed (or less scathed, depending on the genre you're trying to emulate), fail and suffer the loss of San points.

As for Luck, I could argue that Action Points are a partial reflection of that, and have been present in the game (if not always as a default assumption) for two editions.

So yeah, compared to Strength (physical strength in D&D being a massive abstraction), or Constitution or Dexterity (relfexes, hand-eye coordination, fine motor skill, all things that don't necessarily come in a package), they are very narrow.

2. I see no reason for unified mechanics, different stats can and perhaps should function differently.

Subsystems are cool, I think, but with six ability scores already, I feel you can do more with different resources for PCs to use than trying to cram more into an already crowded box. At the end of the day though, D&D is better served with a unified mechanic, and subsystems that plug into it to complement it.

3. Skill system has zero impact on relevance of ability scores.

It kinda does. Ever been rock-climbing? Part of developing the skills to climb rocky surfaces is developing the strength, endurance, and muscle memory to perform the task. In D&D-speak, being good at climbing (AKA having ranks in the skill/being trained in the skill) should mean you have the strength to practice the activity. In reality, from 3rd edition onward, if you roll up an 8 Str rogue, that skill rating is going to suck proportional to what it should be (and compared to a 2nd edition thief, for exemple).

The intersection of physical stats and skills is where it's most obvious, but even with mental attributes it can get wonky.

4. Comeliness: has worked very well in D&D for decades

Ah yes, an attribute presented in a non-core rulebook, referenced a few times, and then dropped from the following editions sure has endured the test of time...

The problem with comeliness is the same as with every other ability score : what does it represent? With strength, you can have an objective reading, and say it's a general measure of muscle strength. But "beauty" really is in the eye of the beholder (no pun intended). Assigning a value to something wholly subjective is, in my opinion, not required for a game (and hasn't been required by the game since 1989, or really ever when you think about it.)

Not saying you can't make your game work with those (it's obvious you probably do), but assuming those as default assumptions in the core game would be a mistake, in my opinion.

I can work with or without such expanded ability score use, but they tend to be favored by players. Sanity, an overall measure of mental stability, is a lot of fun.[/QUOTE]
 

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