D&D 5E Time to switch from Wis to Cha for representing Willpower

[Ainamacar]

I'm inclined to think of Intelligence as a measure of reasoning, Wisdom as measure of recognizing/mastering desires, and Charisma as the capability to pursue one's desires. Or: Intelligence determines the smart thing to do, Wisdom determines whether or not one can pursue the smart thing, and Charisma determines the effectiveness of autonomous action.

So consider the example of the drunkard. Intelligence can tell them that they are ruining their life. Wisdom deals with the self-awareness of the desire and the battle to choose one course or another. Charisma influences how definitively they avoid the bottle or how ferociously they give in. A drunkard with high Int, low Wisdom, and high Charisma could give 1000 fantastic reasons to stop drinking, no Wisdom to actually master the desire, and recklessly pursue the bottle with Charisma. If the same character had low Charisma they might still be a drunk but they might not drink with such abandon.

In a more stereotypical D&D context, suppose we have a character attracted to a princess who is, by all societal standards, firmly off-limits. Intelligence would help give a measure of the pros and cons of pursuing the princess. Wisdom would deal with whether or not the character can help him or herself ("I must have her.") Charisma would indicate how successful they might be at pursuing the princess, or restraining from the pursuit, once the will is set. A character that doesn't feel the desire in the gut might not need high Wisdom in this case because what the intellect tells them is a good idea is never challenged by desire. Of course, a character with really low Int might draw all the wrong conclusions about whether pursuing the princess is a good or bad idea, and still end up in a mess of trouble.

One could apply a similar pattern to matters of perception, although I'm finding it trickier. Perhaps Intelligence is analysis, Wisdom is situational awareness of environment/desires, and Charisma is awareness of autonomy/emotions. In social conflicts Intelligence might help one hypothesize an opponent's "angle", Wisdom might detect desires, and Charisma might help detect coercion. An NPC that is trying to con the PCs might be detected with Wisdom while an NPC that is operating honestly but under coercion might be detected with Charisma. I think that would leave intact the painfully oblivious and easily exploited character with high Charisma but low Intelligence and Wisdom, while giving Charisma a legitimate perceptive role. Even assuming Wisdom is self-awareness and distinct from Charisma as "sense of self", the analogous perceptive qualities of other-awareness and "sense of other" does walk a tightrope.

For resistances I think Charisma would be perfect against blunt compulsions or other things where the character knows something is amiss and desires to fight. Wisdom wold appropriate for subtle effects, like noticing illusions or charms that alter perception and appear to leave it intact, but don't coerce. Intelligence would be appropriate for effects that can be defeated by reasoning or applying direct knowledge, like disbelieving suspected illusions, overcoming confusion, or other effects where perception may be disrupted but the target's essence is not.

That breakdown would hopefully move some of the interesting mind-affecting effects around, but also give each kind a distinct impact on the game. Characters with low Charisma could be told what to do, characters with low Wisdom could be altered in hopes they behave accordingly, and characters with low intelligence could be tricked outright.

 

[Szatany]

I tend to associate Wisdom with intuition and beneficial habits, and Charisma with a sense of self and an understanding of people.

Willpower as the ability to resist temptation is more about wisdom. It isn't even willpower at all. It's recognizing temptation and avoiding it. But willpower as the ability to keep going when it hurts? That's force of personality, or charisma.

Just to make the issue even less clear , resisting temptation can be equal to keeping going when it hurts. For example, fighting off addiciton.

 

[Jiggawatts]

I always liked the stat based categories in Castles & Crusades for saving throws (though I dont really like the whole prime/non prime thing).

Strength: Paralysis, Constriction
Dexterity: Breath Weapon, Traps
Constitution: Disease, Energy Drain, Poison
Intelligence: Arcane Magic, Illusion
Wisdom: Divine Magic, Confusion, Gaze Attack, Polymorph, Petrification
Charisma: Death Attack, Charm, Fear
Variable: Spells

 

[Stalker0]

That's an argument to have perception be under some other stat, not for internal willpower to be under Charisma.

I'd be fine with perception being its own thing completely outside of abilities and skills. Its such a powerful ability that forcing it into the same mold as other skills just does it a disservice.

 

[Stalker0]

I suspect wanting Druids and Rangers to have decent Wisdom scores, and to be good in perception, also played into it.

Druids and Rangers could always have skill focus perception as a class ability.

 

[Li Shenron]

That's an argument to have perception be under some other stat, not for internal willpower to be under Charisma. The original Unearthed Arcana had rules for Perception to be its own stat, didn't it? And I can see an argument for having perception be an aspect of Intelligence.

But, really, while the placement of functions has to make some vague intuitive sense, it also has to be an issue of stat-balance. As in, don't make one stat an obvious dump-stat.

It's an argument to have perception and willpower separate, but there is no single solution.

I propose to keep perception under Wis and move willpower somewhere else, but the opposite is another solution.

It's maybe a silly image, but it might result in the following association:

Wisdom = input
Intelligence = processing
Charisma = output

And of course it is also an issue of stat-balance, in fact the main reason why I'd like to separate the two is because IMXP Wisdom is the most valuable mental stat in D&D. In fact I mentioned that one issue is that Wis largely dominates in terms of spells ST.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I don't really care which ability, Wis or Cha, represents "willpower", but whichever it is, they need to make it clear. Right now, the difference between a Wis and Cha save is quite vague.

 

[delericho]

FWIW, I've always considered the stats to work like this:

Cha is the "mental analogue" of Str - it indicates your ability to express yourself on the world.

Int is the "mental analogue" of Dex - it indicates mental agility and flexibility.

Wis is the "mental analogue" of Con - it indicates mental fortitude and resilience.

Unfortunately, for various reasons I don't think these definitions would work for 5e, not least because of the "save for every stat" thing - under this model Str/Cha are entirely offensive, Con/Wis entirely defensive, and Dex/Int a hybrid that does some of each.

 

[Blackwarder]

Maybe it's time to divorce all the perception checks from ability scores or add a sense semi ability or something...

Warder

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

Oh, the problem would be easily solved if we changed the ability scores. But that's one hell of a sacred cow.

The concepts of intuition, perception, willpower, and social presence need to fall somewhere. Lumping them into two groups will always be awkward. Previously, wisdom has absorbed the first three, and charasima has been the classic dump stat. Shifting willpower over to Charisma at least evens things out. And, as an optional module, we could break the six ability scores into 12 in a smooth manner.