Tinkering with Metamagic feats

[Cheiromancer]

People have noted that there are problems with some metamagic feats. For one thing, you have to pay twice- you have to expend the feat, and you have to prepare the spells in a higher slot. In addition, some of the metamagic feats are mechanically weak.

For example, I was thinking about spell durations, and it seems to me that in the progression of rounds/level, minutes/level and 10 minutes/level, the relevant number is 10, not 2.

So I propose that Extend Spell increase a spell's duration by a factor of 10. It can still be only applied once, of course.

Generally speaking, if a 2nd level spell lasts 1 minute/level, wouldn't it be fair to say that a spell that (does the exact same thing but) lasts 10 minutes/level would be 3rd level?

Is there something I am not seeing that would make this change very, very broken?

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Along the same lines, short range is 25 ft + 5 ft/2 levels, medium range is 100 ft + 10 ft/level, and long range is 400 ft + 40 ft/level. Each is 4 times the previous. Why not do the same thing with enlarge spell?

Comments?

 

[Crothian]

Well, you have to consider it with all spells. Sure going from 1 minute/level to 10 minutes a level doesn't seem that bad, but what about the spells with duration 1 hour a level that go to 10 hours a level. You could have spells that easily last days. For a second level spell one gets Mage armor 10 hours per level, so by the time a wizard can do that (third level) it would be lasting 30 hours.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

Well, you have to consider it with all spells. Sure going from 1 minute/level to 10 minutes a level doesn't seem that bad, but what about the spells with duration 1 hour a level that go to 10 hours a level. You could have spells that easily last days. For a second level spell one gets Mage armor 10 hours per level, so by the time a wizard can do that (third level) it would be lasting 30 hours.

I would recommend the following progression:

1 round/level
1 minute/level
10 minutes/level
1 hour/level
24 hours

Then just don't allow Extend Spell to work on a spell with a duration greater than 1 hour/level.

One advantage of this change is that an extended summon monster spell could actually use the creature for more than combat - 1 minute/level would allow some limited scouting and such.

 

[AeroDm]

I would recommend the following progression:

1 round/level
1 minute/level
10 minutes/level
1 hour/level
24 hours

Then just don't allow Extend Spell to work on a spell with a duration greater than 1 hour/level.

It was my intent to post that verbatim... gasp.

Although I must say that 3.0 haste would seem pretty broken. Extend Haste was the most common 4th level spell I saw in 3.0 and that was at x2. Also, can you imagine if the buff spells were used in conjunction with that? I mean 10 min/level is crazy!

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

The only problem I can see is hitting someone with damage over time spells. Don't think there are many in the players, but lots of 3rd party stuff.

Not sure if Melfs Acid Arrow is instant + effect continues or whether it has a duration. If it can be affected, 30+ rounds of acid damage could really ruin someones day.

Few other spells might cause a problem at 10X duration... some of the funny summon spells - bigbys 'XXXX'ing hands for example...

 

[Spatzimaus]

x10 is just too good for a +1 level feat, though. Some people house-ruled Persistent Spell to be x10 duration (instead of the flat 24 hours), and at +4 levels people would STILL take it.

Back in the old 3E days people could stack metamagics with themselves, so you'd see the Extended Extended Extended Endurance. Can't do that any more, so I'd just do it more like,

Extend I: x2 duration, +1 level
Extend II: x4 duration, +2 levels
Extend III: x6 duration, +3 levels
Extend IV: x10 duration, +4 levels (aka Persistent Spell)

Each of these is better than the ones before, if you do D&D-style doubling correctly. Now yes, a 1 hour/level spell at 20th level would now last over 4 days, which could get annoying, but at a cost of 4 spell levels? Or, you could just add in a 24-hour cap, and say that no spell can have a duration longer than 24 hours unless the spell explicitly says so.

 

[Cheiromancer]

A 1 round/level spell is going to last for one (reasonably short) combat. Making it last one minute/level might mean multiple combats if you don't perform a thorough search afterwards (taking 20), discuss strategy, question prisoners, divide treasure, etc.. I seem to recall Monte Cook posting that he disliked 1 minute/level spells; they straddle the gap between 1 encounter and multiple encounters.

Anyway, a x10 to a 1 round/level or 1 minute/level spell pushes it into the multiple encounter category. A 10 minute/level spell, extended in this way, will basically last all day. That's still only 4 encounters or so, given the DnD standard about how often a party should rest.

The point is that a normal extend spell does not significantly increase the utility of a 1 round/level spell; it'll still be only effective for one encounter. When you anticipate a long combat this might be worthwhile. A 1 minute/level spell changed to a 2 minute/level spell... well, it might be helpful in a dungeon, where things are close together, but outside it is easy for the DM to say "after another hour's travel..." and the spell is expired.

When the base duration is 1 hour/level, the extended version would probably last several days. I don't know if that is really a problem (except, possibly, for book-keeping). A 10th level wizard with this feat only has to cast mage armor twice a week. If that is the worse "abuse" of the modified feat, I would be happy.

The continuing damage spells, I suspect, will not be highly significant. Combats don't last long enough for the full extent of the duration to become really significant. Either the critter dies way before the extended Acid Arrow expires, or it kills the party before the spell kills it, or it spends an action jumping in a stream or something to wash away the acid. An acid arrow that lasts twice as long is probably only a little less effective than one that lasts 10 times as long.

I am rambling too much: I just think that at x2 an extend spell adds very little. At x10 it definitely adds something.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[the Jester]

The continuing damage spells, I suspect, will not be highly significant. Combats don't last long enough for the full extent of the duration to become really significant. Either the critter dies way before the extended Acid Arrow expires, or it kills the party before the spell kills it, or it spends an action jumping in a stream or something to wash away the acid. An acid arrow that lasts twice as long is probably only a little less effective than one that lasts 10 times as long.

I have to disagree with you here.

What if the hypothetical x10 duration acid arrow hits a pc who is somewhere with no available liquid to clean it off (i.e. lost in a desert or plain where it can take twenty minutes or more to find water) and no available dispel magic? He dies, short of a huge amount of healing, regeneration, or acid resistance/immunity. And that's just a 3rd level spell (assuming you're keeping extend spell at +1; and if you're not, there's no point in not just adding a new greater extend spell feat or something, neh? )

I think that making a duration increase tenfold for only +1 level is too good. Personally, my experiences with Extend Spell (as both a dm and a player) seem to peg it as an 'average' value metamagic for +1 level. I have found it's actually better (more likely to be useful) than either Silent Spell or Still Spell, actually.

But as always... YMMV.

 

[Spatzimaus]

A 1 round/level spell is going to last for one (reasonably short) combat. Making it last one minute/level might mean multiple combats if you don't perform a thorough search afterwards (taking 20), discuss strategy, question prisoners, divide treasure, etc.. I seem to recall Monte Cook posting that he disliked 1 minute/level spells; they straddle the gap between 1 encounter and multiple encounters.

A 1 minute/level spell is FAR better than a 1 round/level. It's not just about the number of fights the player can get into within that time; which, in many environments, is under the PLAYERS' control. If they stand around arguing over loot while their buffs expire, it's their own fault; in my group's dungeon crawls, it's storm through, spend at most two rounds throwing everying into the Bag of Holding, then move on to the next room.

It's more about prebuffing, especially in 3.5E (now that Haste double-casting is effectively gone). Let's say I'm a Psychic Warrior with loads of good, short-duration combat powers. To start with, I've got Combat Prescience, Polymorph Self, Inertial Barrier, Displacement, Biofeedback, Vigor. I'm not counting the long-duration stuff here, just things I won't put on until it's time to fight.

Let's say I know a fight is coming in the near future. Maybe it's because we're doing the Scry-Buff-Teleport thing, who knows. I can put on every 1 min/level spell, no problem, but the 1 round per level ones? Those are a bit tougher. For that, even a x2 Extend works okay, but you really want more.

Besides which, at low caster levels, a 1 round/level spell often won't even last a single combat.

Anyway, as a DM I'd never allow a x10 duration feat for anything less than +3 levels, if only to prevent the Melf's abuse. Or better yet, SUMMON SPELLS. Seriously, extending the duration on summons to 1 minute per level makes a huge difference in utility. I know, I played a Constructor who had that feat.