Titan Fighting

[IcyCool]

Let's just go ahead and simplify.

Character A has a [Named bonus]. Character A has a class ability that lets him add [Named bonus] to his AC. Character A gets a prestige class telling him that he can add [Named bonus] to his AC. Since [Named bonus] doesn't stack, he cannot apply it twice.

If the [Named bonus] did stack (i.e. was of a type of named bonus that stacks), why couldn't Character A benefit from it twice?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Character A has a [Named bonus]. Character A has a class ability that lets him add [Named bonus] to his AC. Character A gets a prestige class telling him that he can add [Named bonus] to his AC. Since [Named bonus] doesn't stack, he cannot apply it twice.

No, he can't apply it twice because he's already got the benefit of the ability.

Let's say I have Improved Evasion from two sources. On a failed Reflex save, Improved Evasion lets me take half damage, and Improved Evasion lets me take half damage. Do I take a quarter damage? Or am I "A character with Improved Evasion" (no matter from how many sources) who takes half damage?

-Hyp.

 

[IcyCool]

No, he can't apply it twice because he's already got the benefit of the ability.

Let's say I have Improved Evasion from two sources. On a failed Reflex save, Improved Evasion lets me take half damage, and Improved Evasion lets me take half damage. Do I take a quarter damage? Or am I "A character with Improved Evasion" (no matter from how many sources) who takes half damage?

-Hyp.

Isn't there wording in the Improved Evasion ability that prevents this?

(Also, why does Titan Fighting make your AC worse against giants?)

 

[Zandel]

It seems you all missed the most important word in the feat... let me explain:

Originally Posted by Races of Stone
Benefit: When you designate a creature at least one size category larger than you as the target of your Dodge feat, you apply your racial dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type against attacks from that opponent (regardless of its creature type) instead of the +1 bonus granted by the Dodge feat.

That means that the feat takes your racial bonus and applies it to all creatures of a size at least one larger that you (including giants) and uses it to replace your +1 for dodge. That's by the RAW.

Now i'd have to say that what the designers were trying to do was let you apply your +racial against all creatures at least one size larger than you (excluding giants) in place of the +1 dodge.

I'd rule that against giants this feat has no effect but that would be a house rule not RAW. And I think this is how the designers meant it to be but I can't be sure.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Isn't there wording in the Improved Evasion ability that prevents this?

No, there isn't. You're probably thinking of Uncanny Dodge, which says that if you have Uncanny Dodge from two or more sources, you get Improved Uncanny Dodge.

(Also, why does Titan Fighting make your AC worse against giants?)

It doesn't make it worse against giants.

It makes it worse against one particular giant, if and only if you've chosen him as the target of your Dodge feat.

Which I would house rule.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Isn't there wording in the Improved Evasion ability that prevents this?

Not that I've noticed...

(Also, why does Titan Fighting make your AC worse against giants?)

Because rather than applying your racial bonus and your Dodge feat bonus, you apply your racial bonus instead of your Dodge feat bonus.

-Hyp.

 

[Coredump]

If I create a feat that allows you to add your Dex bonus to AC (limited by the max Dex bonus of armor), would you consider that 'Sweet! Double Dex!' or 'Meh - I can do that already without the feat'?

-Hyp.

It may depend some on wording... but probably not.

The same if I made a feat that allows dwarves to get a racial bonus to AC against giants.


But this feat doesnt do that, it allows to to replace, swap, trade-out, whatever, one bonus for another.

To use the other example, a feat that allows you to add your Wis bonus to AC would not be useful to a Monk.
But a feat that allowed you to replace your dex bonus to AC with your wisdom bonus to AC...that would be awesome for a monk.

This feat lets the dwarf replace his dodge bonus with his racial bonus. It makes NO mention that giants are not allowed, it makes NO mention of it only applying once....

By your interpretations.... it makes the dodge feat detrimental against giants. So much so that Patryn wants to houserule a change. A change that isn't necessary based on what the feat actually says.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But a feat that allowed you to replace your dex bonus to AC with your wisdom bonus to AC...that would be awesome for a monk.

Let's phrase it the same as Titan Fighting.

It allows the monk to apply his Wis bonus to AC, instead of his Dex bonus.

But the monk can already apply his Wis bonus to AC as well as his Dex bonus. The benefit of the feat is of no use to him, but the trade-off of the feat can hamper him.

The monk would be advised not to take this feat.

If a feat that allows the monk to apply his Wis bonus to AC is useless, a feat that allows the monk to apply his Wis bonus to AC but disallows Dex bonus is worse than useless.

-Hyp.

 

[Coredump]

Let's phrase it the same as Titan Fighting.

Sure, but you didn't.

When calculating your AC, you apply the modifier for your Wisdom instead of the modifier for your Dex.

Again, the key term is "instead of", not also, not allowed... where there used to be a Dex modifier, there is now a Wis modifier. It is RAW. If you want to debate intent, or sensibility, we can do that also...but the english is pretty straight forward.

It allows the monk to apply his Wis bonus to AC, instead of his Dex bonus.

But the monk can already apply his Wis bonus to AC as well as his Dex bonus. The benefit of the feat is of no use to him, but the trade-off of the feat can hamper him.

Calculating AC is a simple equation. The feat allows you to replace one value with another.

To do what you interpret, the feat would have stated:
When you designate a creature at least one size category larger than you as the target of your Dodge feat, treat them as giants(regardless of its creature type) in regards to applying your racial dodge bonus.
In *that* case, the giants would only be treated once.

If a feat that allows the monk to apply his Wis bonus to AC is useless, a feat that allows the monk to apply his Wis bonus to AC but disallows Dex bonus is worse than useless.

-Hyp.

But the equivalent feat would *not* say the monk can apply his Wis bonus to AC, it is saying the monk can replace his dex bonus with his wis bonus. (Plus the fact that the wis bonus, and the dex bonus are treated differently; so the two wis bonuses would be treated differently.)



edit: I don't have time to change my reply, but wanted to apologize, since upon re-reading it, is sure sounds a bit terse. Not intentional.

 

[Hypersmurf]

When calculating your AC, you apply the modifier for your Wisdom instead of the modifier for your Dex.

Again, the key term is "instead of", not also, not allowed... where there used to be a Dex modifier, there is now a Wis modifier.

Fair enough.

Your AC is equal to the following:

10 + armor bonus + shield bonus + Dexterity modifier + size modifier

becomes

Your AC is equal to the following:

10 + armor bonus + shield bonus + Wisdom modifier + size modifier.

The monk ability states When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC.

Now the monk ability is meaningless (under non-flat-footed circumstances), because it grants a benefit that the character already has from the feat - adding Wisdom bonus to AC.

Calculating AC is a simple equation. The feat allows you to replace one value with another.

But it's not just the value. It allows you to add a specific bonus. Not a new bonus with the same value.

To do what you interpret, the feat would have stated:
When you designate a creature at least one size category larger than you as the target of your Dodge feat, treat them as giants(regardless of its creature type) in regards to applying your racial dodge bonus.

That would have a different result to what I described; in this case, all Large creatures would give you a +5 Dodge bonus. As written, all Large creatures give you a +4 Dodge bonus.

-Hyp.