To all the other "simulationists" out there...

[JDJblatherings]

The player became very frustrated, and rightfully so. The guard was a mook. A nobody. A "red shirt". But as we looked over his stats, there was no way the rogue could have eliminated him silently. He was a few levels lower than the rogue, but a "one-shot-kill" was still quiet simply impossible. All that preparation and cleverness, by the rules as written, meant nothing.
..

The guard wasn't a mook. That's what that fight represented.

 

[StarFyre]

hmmm

we got around stupid stuff like that by creating our own called shot/critical hit system based on the 2e combat & tactics detailed crit hit system.

it allows for slitting throats, blinding people, cutting off limbs, etc...

We're just going to move that over into 4E since it can be impleemnted in any game system really.

Is it the best? nope..It has it';s own issues Iam sure in the sense that the way we do it, we assume a rate of bleeding, etc if you lose a limb, etc...is that blood loss rate realistic? no idea..but it makes is plausable..a person could live with a lost limb but they could also die from blood loss depending on time it takes for people to help.

Sanjay

 

[JDJblatherings]

You don't need extra rules...the mooks have to be mooks 1st level warriors with rolled hp and nonheroic ability scores. Tada..insta mook: 1st level warrior 5hp, AC:13, BAB: +1, dmg- 1-8 , move: 30' (well in 3.x) .

 

[Celebrim]

In my experience if you can't see the problems in the first few games, there aren't many major problems. In fact, you should be able to spot most of them during character creation and your first session.

Really?

I doubt a single one of 3.X's major flaws would have been apparant in anyone's first session. How long did you have D&D's notorious 'a crossbow pointed at your chest isn't dangerous' problem in 3.X before it became so problimatic that it drove you from the game? Heck, for many people, alot of the game's problems don't even begin until 13th level or so. It certainly wouldn't occur to a new player, and certainly not to one playing a 1st level character (at which level, D&D exhibits quite a bit of 'casual realism'). When all your foes are 1 HD or less, who complains about the inability to drop a mook in one blow?

Similarly, alot of GURPS problems get easily lost especially if you are coming from a background like D&D. You keep dealing with death spirals, the ease of knocking out/stunning people compared to hurting/killing them, the problem with defenses near or above 18, the gimicks in the magic system, the near requirement to have hazily statted out NPCs, the too volumnous skill system - to say nothing of actual versimilitude issues like GULLIVER is trying to deal with or the additional burden high tech carries - for a few years. Then tell me if you are ready for house rules - if you are still playing.

 

[JDJblatherings]

I doubt a single one of 3.X's major flaws would have been apparant in anyone's first session. How long did you have D&D's notorious 'a crossbow pointed at your chest isn't dangerous' problem in 3.X before it became so problimatic that it drove you from the game? .

It didnt drive me from the game...heroic characters don't worry about getting shot once, they have a lot of HP.

 

[Lacyon]

After watching a group of 1st level PCs *erase* a half-dozen 6th level minions backed up by a 4th level 'artillery' spellcaster (the human mage), I'm not terribly convinced by this premise.

It doesn't seem significantly different from using a monster several levels lower. In fact, considering what a lot of the 4e low level monsters are capable of, they would be more dangerous.

Lower-level monsters aren't as likely to have the attack bonus necessary to hit the PCs, nor the defense numbers to avoid being hit all the time. (According to some of the preview data, nothing stops you from using them anyway, if that's your fancy).

How many 1st-level guys was this, anyway? Back-of-the-envelope calculations suggest that 6+ 1st-level PCs are supposed to erase these creatures (and a smaller party that unleashes a lot of dailies in one encounter will probably do likewise).

 

[mhensley]

You don't need extra rules...the mooks have to be mooks 1st level warriors with rolled hp and nonheroic ability scores. Tada..insta mook: 1st level warrior 5hp, AC:13, BAB: +1, dmg- 1-8 , move: 30' (well in 3.x) .

The problem with making the guard a minion, mook, wussy, etc. is that by making them weak enough that a sneak attack has a good chance of killing them in one shot you have removed the consequences of failing to sneak up on them. Why bother having the rogue sneak attack them when the party's puny mage can walk right up their face and kill them with one punch just as well?

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Sure. Correct me if I'm wrong, though, but don't minions usually accompany a more powerful creature? It sounds like this was just a lone guard....

Minions are just weaker "soap-bubble" Glass Critters. No indication they need a leader as of yet.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

EDIT – Is it just my browser, or has ENWorld gone crazy?

Really?

I doubt a single one of 3.X's major flaws would have been apparant in anyone's first session. How long did you have D&D's notorious 'a crossbow pointed at your chest isn't dangerous' problem in 3.X before it became so problimatic that it drove you from the game?/QUOTE]

The "problem" was obvious the first time I read the rules. It didn't drive me away until I realized I wanted something else bad enough to leave.

Similarly, alot of GURPS problems get easily lost especially if you are coming from a background like D&D. You keep dealing with death spirals, the ease of knocking out/stunning people compared to hurting/killing them, the problem with defenses near or above 18, the gimicks in the magic system, the near requirement to have hazily statted out NPCs, the too volumnous skill system - to say nothing of actual versimilitude issues like GULLIVER is trying to deal with or the additional burden high tech carries - for a few years. Then tell me if you are ready for house rules - if you are still playing.

Every one of these "problems" can be solved by knowing what aspects of GURPS you are going to allow or disallow for your game.

A "Death Spiral" is realistic. I like it. Let's see how well you fight after being smashed in the head with a war hammer.

the ease of knocking out/stunning people compared to hurting/killing them

Again, this is realistic. I don't want super-heroism in GURPS. I want realism.
I’ll go to D&D for my super-heroism needs.

the problem with defenses near or above 18

How many character points are you playing with?! Still, I don't see the problem. The Deceptive Attack options means that nobody is immune to being hit, no matter their Active Defense scores.

gimicks in the magic system

Care to elaborate? The magic system works fine for me thus far. That said, my campaign uses about four different magic systems.

the near requirement to have hazily statted out NPCs

Same with D&D, or any other system. You don't always need to know if orc #4 is a good fisherman.

the too volumnous skill system

You aren't supposed to use every skill in every game. When putting together your campaign, you should select the skills you expect your PCs and NPCs to use before hand.

to say nothing of actual versimilitude issues

Such as?

 

[WheresMyD20]

I played MERP--which uses the Rolemaster rules--for years and years and never had to break out the calculator. I'm a English major-type, so you know my math skills are poor.

You certainly don't need a calculator for Rolemaster, but it does speed things up a bit. The math isn't much more than addition and subtraction, but most of the numbers are two or three digits long, so it's just faster to do it on a large-button calculator than in your head (at least for us).