To anyone who bought the EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK

[Regdar]

From his butthole, of course. This is the internet, what did you expect?

Get bent

Oh. So you must have playtested the epic level rules from 21st level to 40th level then? Perhaps even as high as 60th level? If you did playtest it, why didn't you fix it? If you didn't playtest from 21st level to 40th level, then where do you draw your judgement from?

Seriously though, what made you come to your conclusion that there is no steady power curve? Do you mean there isn't a steady power curve among any given class? Monster? Or is there no steady power curve in relation to all of the classes and monsters?

Yep, those levels or equivilant were tested. You know why they didn't change, the testers got ignored after round two. Regdar isn't the only tester to say, pretty much most of us felt that way.

Play how you wish, but don't try to say the book isn't something that it's not as a justification for the absurdity of jump that happens, which many who have salivated over the book so they can bring out their characters who beat up on Thor regularly. There are epic leaps and bounds in so many areas, and others, you have to pull an Edena of Neith, who seemed to have cheated his way to 113th or whatever, to accomplish anything. Regdar wanted this book to work, for Regdar and many others it does not.

 

[WizarDru]

Now I doubt anyone with a sword that big needs me to defend him, but I felt it was pretty wildly known around here that Regdar is a playtest. He's made comments about the ELH for months now. (Even long before it leaked to the web.)

Well, as someone who hasn't made disparaging comments about Regdar, I can say that I was comletely unaware that he was a playtester. Nor do I hold him responsible for the final product. Or any other playtester for that matter. That falls squarely on the shoulders of the editor and the author(s).

Such credit works both ways, however. They may not have been ignored, so much as overruled or just disagreed with. Having only worked on playtests for SJG, I couldn't comment either way.

 

[Buddha the DM]

Seeing as how Redgar is in here I thought that I'd ask this.

Now that the ELH is out does anyone think that Wizards should do a web enhancement with epic level versions of the PHB & PsiHB Iconics?

 

[William Ronald]

Epic Level versions of the iconics would be nice. (I will likely pick up the ELH later this week.)

I do agree that there were some valid points on the multiple quickened spell issues raised. Obviously there are going to be limits in each campaign. I already have a few homebrew rules, so again, it is up to a DM to say what works.

The key question should be does everyone agree to a common set of rules in a campaign and are they having fun. I suspect the style of Epic Level campaigns will range from those resembling myth, legend, and fiction to those resembling Japanese anime.

If a person wants to run a game like some of the TSR chatsite, let them do so. If I want to have some limits on how much a person can do in one round, that is fine as well.

Can we also have a little less recrimination around here. The last time I checked we were discussing gaming, not the big political issues of the day.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Concerning Edena, and concerning the ELH

Heh. LOL.

I was fine with all the responses until Regdar started with that Edena cheated stuff.

If Edena is a cheating character, then God help us with the Epic Level Rulebook.

Edena, with all his levels, could not hope to face an Epic Level character and survive.

An Epic Level character could throw spells that would blast through magic resistance (2nd edition term for spell resistance), and blast through saving throws.
An Epic Level character could simply make himself immune to Edena's best spells.
An Epic Level character could throw up defensive spells that no spell, including Miracle, could penetrate.
An Epic Level character could have an Armor Class of - 90 (in 2nd edition terms), beyond any hope of being struck in combat by Edena.
An Epic Level character could wipe Edena out in a single round of attacks.

- - -

For the record, I think the Epic Level Handbook is GREAT, and I'll say so now.
It is great because it is a great book.
It is great because it expands the game.
It is great because it expands player and DM options.
It is great because it puts players in the driver's seat.
And it is great because, after this book, there will be no more munchkins - the term munchkin has been made obsolete. Sneering players will never truly be able to brandish that word again against their fellows.

 

[William Ronald]

I think there is a difference between the chatsite games and table top games. The key thing is if everyone agreed to a set of rules at a game, then it is only a question if everyone abided to a set of rules and had fun.

The fact that you distinguish between the chatsite version of your character and the tabletop one (who will likely be a mere 21st level) seems to show that you have a sense of proportion.

There are big changes between editions. Heck, a 3rd Edition character of 15th level could probably kill anything in the 1st Edition monster manual as he is moving much faster than his counter parts. (Also, an 88 hit point ancient red dragon looks very week compared to what exists in 3E.)

To me, the issue of gaming is simply this: Are people having fun in their interpreptation of the rules.

The most powerful character I have created and run is epic level (after having him around since the mid 1980s) and would be in the same power category as the stated NPCs I have seen on this thread.

In the end, I think we have to remember that the rulebooks are guidelines. It is up to us to determine how we use them. Remember, you can always rule 0 even the Epic Level Handbook. For example, many DMs may decide there is an upward limit to how much one person can do in a round.

Can we stop some of the recriminations around here? We can disagree without being disagreeable.

 

[V-2]

Epic Level versions of the iconics would be nice.

Now there's a thought.

If Regdar went Epic, he'd kick the living daylight outa Edena.

 

[Johno]

So Regdar,

What would you have changed made different? Share your thoughts and Wisdom here.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Heh.

Redgar would kick Edena's butt, for sure!

Edena isn't an Epic Level character ... well, at least, I don't think he is.
Edena may be a cleric/mage 120/40 in 2nd edition, but I really do not think he is an Epic Level character in 3rd edition.
Edena IS on the verge of being Epic Level, however.

- - -

By the way, I should have added:

A wizard of 100th level could put all his Feats into Multispell, but ...

In my opinion, that would be, let us say ... suicidal? How about insane?

If he thought in such ways, he wouldn't get to 100th level in the first place.
So it was only a theoretical postulation.

- - -

Hey there, William! Nice to see you again!

The old 1st edition dragons wouldn't last one round against 3rd edition dragons, as you said.
Not when they have 30 to 90 hit points, and breath weapons to match, and 3rd edition dragons have ten times the hit points (or more), and at least 5 times the damage (not to mention THAC0s as low as the 1st edition equivalent of - 90.)

And yeah, I think the Epic Level Handbook is neat.
Primarily because it expands the game, and what can be done in the game - the scope of the D&D game covers a greater area of the imagination now.
And yes, because it eliminates the word munchkin from the repetoire.
It's hard to call any character munchkin when WOTC sanctions PC gods and goddesses as being perfectly acceptable.

 

[Darkness]

Re: Concerning Edena, and concerning the ELH

...
For the record, I think the Epic Level Handbook is GREAT, and I'll say so now.
... it is great because, after this book, there will be no more munchkins - the term munchkin has been made obsolete. Sneering players will never truly be able to brandish that word again against their fellows.

Oh, they will, trust me on that:

1) Most people using the M-word use it instead of backing up their opinion. And I don't think that the ELH will make people more reasonable. (Even the opposite in some cases, come to think of it: I'm pretty sure that sooner rather than later, there will be a lot of people who will call everything related to the ELH "munchkin." )

2) A 30th-level character (if playing in a campaign that's appropriate for his power level) who has, say, a +7 longsword and a Strength of 40 might not be a munchkin.
But a 5th-level character with the same sword and Str score just might be a munchkin...