To anyone who bought the EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK
- Thread starter Vecna
- Start date
James McMurray
First Post
Who insulted an iconic? kreynolds with his pointed questions about the origin of Regdar's opinions, or Regdar, with his rendition of the iconic? 
Personally I don't see any insult there.
Personally I don't see any insult there.
kreynolds
First Post
V-2 said:
It's not my fault that our screen names are nearly identical. Sean uses his first and middle initials and his last name. I use my first initial and my last name.
Besides, you can find two different disclaimers in every single one of my posts. If someone gets confused because they didn't notice either one, I don't think anyone can help them.
Mellow Drama
I think the most entertaining thing about you, aside from the manner in which you were shouted down, is that you think drama is totally encompased by the realm of soap operas while everyone else is thinking of particularly well done movies or books.
That in and of itself is *quite* telling. I'm almost afraid that your conception of self improvement is repeating Dr. Phil's catch phrases, subscribing to Oprah's magazine through Publisher's Clearing House and waiting for the prize patrol. But far be it from me to stoop to your level, well maybe not that far....
But you were right about one thing: Queens like yourself do know a lot about drama, and I think we've all learned a lot from your example here. (I mean that as an affirmative, empowering statement, and not as an indictment of your chosen life style.)
A Sala Maleka.
Oracular Vision said:
I think the most entertaining thing about you, aside from the manner in which you were shouted down, is that you think drama is totally encompased by the realm of soap operas while everyone else is thinking of particularly well done movies or books.
That in and of itself is *quite* telling. I'm almost afraid that your conception of self improvement is repeating Dr. Phil's catch phrases, subscribing to Oprah's magazine through Publisher's Clearing House and waiting for the prize patrol. But far be it from me to stoop to your level, well maybe not that far....
But you were right about one thing: Queens like yourself do know a lot about drama, and I think we've all learned a lot from your example here. (I mean that as an affirmative, empowering statement, and not as an indictment of your chosen life style.)
A Sala Maleka.
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
NeoCR said:
Uh, no Edena. When you fought with my character, you specifically said in front of everyone that Edena could actually hurl twelve Meteor Swarms in a round. This was over a year before the ELH came out.
You also fail to leave out a lot of the things you would do, like cast three Wishes in a row and then Gift of Life, and the various other reasons why you annoyed people. This is not to hound, since I came here to read the posts, as you can see this being my first one, but since you are mentioning us at Wizards, I think it would be good if I stood up to defend those.
ANSWER
Hey there, NeoCR.
Welcome to the ENBoard.
Edena did indeed cast twelve Meteor Swarms in a round.
Edena did indeed cast three Wishes in a row.
And then Gift of Life, to boot.
One must remember that there were a number of game-breaking spells in 1st and 2nd edition: one of these was Tempus Fugit, which allowed a super-haste effect where the character could move at 6x normal speed.
And back then, it was possible to stack Tempus Fugit with Haste, to produce 12x speed.
If that gets your jaw dropping in ridicule or disbelief, it gets worse.
One could cast Melee Manager over and above that to increase one's attacks to anywhere from 24x to 36x.
One could cast Magic Manager to do the same thing.
The spell Mantle enabled one to throw an extra spell each round (or 6 such spells if under a Tempus Fugit.)
The spells Box of Spells and the Simbul's various spells made the situation even worse.
Nevermind the Lasse Faire WOTC chatsite.
I had a DM once who allowed the following, all of them stacking:
Gloves of Haste ( x2 )
Armbands of Haste ( x2 )
Weapons of Haste ( x2 )
The Haste spell ( x2 )
Tempus Fugit ( x6 )
That was in addition to normal attacks.
So, a fully hasted cavalier, with his 1st edition attacks of 5/2, now had 240 attacks per round.
If he attacked with a weapon in both hands, his attacks jumped to 10/2 (we used double attacks for both hands), so his attacks jumped to 480 per round.
A fully hasted mage could throw 96 spells in a single round.
Was this a youthful DM?
Yes. He was only 16.
However, some of his players were 40 or older.
A most interesting situation. It got even more interesting when someone had their Tempus Fugit effect made Permanent, and able to turn it on or off at will.
However, in that game we were fighting monsters that could do the same thing.
In that game, we were fighting monsters able to throw spells in a graduated power system of up to 20th level.
In that game, we had to fight beings with thousands of hit points.
Likewise, in the old TSR (later WOTC) chatsite, a Lasse Faire situation existed.
This should be known by anyone who has not visited the site.
For example, we had Redeemers.
Religious fanatics of a decidedly evil bent, they were out to slay all mages and reduce to second-class status all non-humans.
All Redeemers were utterly and totally immune to all magic except for their own.
All Redeemers could fire magical Bolts of Redemption (a kind of Divine Magic) at foes, typically for 20d6 points of damage.
Then we had the Viles.
The Viles were effectively not killable.
If a Vile was killed, he or she was restored by the power of Shadowgrid Temple, and only the destruction of that Unholy Place in the Abyss could end the Vile threat.
The Viles could kill with a touch, could steal and turn the souls of their foes, and could generally break through most barriers.
In a Lasse Faire situation like that, I was not compelled to lessen the strength of any of my characters therein, and could use the game-breaking spells normally (except for the campaign mentioned above, it was rare that Tempus Fugit came into play. It ... was ... a game-breaker, and simply put very difficult to adjudicate, and harder yet to justify.)
So yeah, you encountered the full strength Edena, complete with the game-breaking spells.
- - -
However, that was there, and this is here.
Here being, that this is official 3rd edition.
Now, in 3rd edition, you can actually do far worse than any mere 12 spells per round.
I have calculated that if a mage took the Epic Feat Multispell for every available feat possible, and then advanced to 100th level doing this, he or she would be able to cast approximately 44 spells per round (43 quickened spells plus one normal.)
These are spells the mage can innately cast, not a quickened spell ability from an actual spell. Throw actual spells to enhance the mage, and it gets really bad.
Add that Two-Minded spell from Necromancer Games to the mix, and you get a ghastly 88 spells per round (since, in this case, the two effects do stack.)
All this, mind you, in a 6 second round. In 2nd edition terms, that would be 880 spells per round.
If this sounds implausible, remember that in the Epic Level Book they state openly that it is perfectly fine for PCs to be gods, and then for them to continue as PCs (and they thought the Chosen were powerful. Bah. Who needs mortality? ...)
There is no limit now.
Any level of power is acceptable.
They bandy about levels of power in the Epic Level Rulebook that are so incredible, compared to the 1st and 2nd edition game, that the highest stat I ever saw in a lifetime of gaming - 32 - is a mundane minor thing now, compared to the 60 achievable for the Epic Character.
This is the norm, the standard, in the ELH.
Edena's 12 Meteor Swarms in a 60 second round wouldn't last 6 seconds against an Epic Level Character (who could well dodge all of them, or simply resist all of them, or have so many hit points they laughed at the damage.)
Edena's 3 Wishes are laughable compared to Epic Spells. There is no Wish ever devised that could duplicate the effects I'm seeing in some of those spells (nothing quite like summoning winter and carrying it around with you.)
Gift of Life is neat, but now you can throw Contingent Resurrection on someone. No need for a cleric - you just throw that spell, and they have an indefinite Life Insurance policy.
Edena could never achieve Epic Level Feats.
He simply could not do it.
He could ... not ... achieve Epic Wisdom, Epic Strength, Epic Endurance, Multispell, and all those others.
He could ... not ... walk on water, balance on clouds, break down adamantine doors, detect magic with his senses, swim or run forever, or any such thing.
And Edena could ... not ... throw Epic Spells.
Edena DID learn how to throw 10th level spells of the Arcane Age - with great difficulty, and by paying a high price for each casting.
But the stunts Edena pulled, such as throwing 12 meteor swarms in one round ... that was the result of Tempus Fugit, Magic Manager, and other such spells, none of which exist in 3rd edition, and none of which were ever allowed by most of my 2nd edition DMs.
Thus, I cannot count that towards any Epic abilities of the character for 3rd edition.
If Edena had had the innate ability to throw 12 spells a round, then yes, that would have been Epic.
The truth is, Edena innately could only cast 1 spell per round, just like any 2nd edition character.
I most certainly cannot use the standard of the TSR/WOTC chatsite for a character conversion!
Many of the characters in the place would be Epic Level, and many would translate into deities in 3rd edition.
It was not a standard game, as it were, and the Lasse Faire system prevalent there would not translate well.
So, I must translate the standard Edena (as he exists in story, and as his power level is in regular games) and not the chatsite Edena.
Don't worry, though ...
When Edena is translated, I will play him, and if he survives he'll gain those Epic Levels.
And then he will be able to do far worse things than any of the stunts he pulled at the chatsite, and all of it by the official rules.
You wait and see!
Right now, I continue to lean (but I have not decided yet) towards making Edena a cleric 20th / mage 1st, making him a 21st level character.
That puts him on a roughly equal footing with the Realms and Greyhawk NPCs of his age (440.)
Whether he went up as a straight cleric, or took a Prestige Class, is still a big question.
What Feats he took is a big question.
And the Skills system ... that will require a lot of translation.
As for spells ... he will have a truly enormous repetoire of Arcane spells.
However, that was something earned in an actual game.
Big risks can entail big rewards ...
A final thing.
If Edena annoyed the PCs at the chatsite, I am not surprised.
Know that the PCs at the chatsite often annoyed Edena just as badly.
Uh, no Edena. When you fought with my character, you specifically said in front of everyone that Edena could actually hurl twelve Meteor Swarms in a round. This was over a year before the ELH came out.
You also fail to leave out a lot of the things you would do, like cast three Wishes in a row and then Gift of Life, and the various other reasons why you annoyed people. This is not to hound, since I came here to read the posts, as you can see this being my first one, but since you are mentioning us at Wizards, I think it would be good if I stood up to defend those.
ANSWER
Hey there, NeoCR.
Welcome to the ENBoard.
Edena did indeed cast twelve Meteor Swarms in a round.
Edena did indeed cast three Wishes in a row.
And then Gift of Life, to boot.
One must remember that there were a number of game-breaking spells in 1st and 2nd edition: one of these was Tempus Fugit, which allowed a super-haste effect where the character could move at 6x normal speed.
And back then, it was possible to stack Tempus Fugit with Haste, to produce 12x speed.
If that gets your jaw dropping in ridicule or disbelief, it gets worse.
One could cast Melee Manager over and above that to increase one's attacks to anywhere from 24x to 36x.
One could cast Magic Manager to do the same thing.
The spell Mantle enabled one to throw an extra spell each round (or 6 such spells if under a Tempus Fugit.)
The spells Box of Spells and the Simbul's various spells made the situation even worse.
Nevermind the Lasse Faire WOTC chatsite.
I had a DM once who allowed the following, all of them stacking:
Gloves of Haste ( x2 )
Armbands of Haste ( x2 )
Weapons of Haste ( x2 )
The Haste spell ( x2 )
Tempus Fugit ( x6 )
That was in addition to normal attacks.
So, a fully hasted cavalier, with his 1st edition attacks of 5/2, now had 240 attacks per round.
If he attacked with a weapon in both hands, his attacks jumped to 10/2 (we used double attacks for both hands), so his attacks jumped to 480 per round.
A fully hasted mage could throw 96 spells in a single round.
Was this a youthful DM?
Yes. He was only 16.
However, some of his players were 40 or older.
A most interesting situation. It got even more interesting when someone had their Tempus Fugit effect made Permanent, and able to turn it on or off at will.
However, in that game we were fighting monsters that could do the same thing.
In that game, we were fighting monsters able to throw spells in a graduated power system of up to 20th level.
In that game, we had to fight beings with thousands of hit points.
Likewise, in the old TSR (later WOTC) chatsite, a Lasse Faire situation existed.
This should be known by anyone who has not visited the site.
For example, we had Redeemers.
Religious fanatics of a decidedly evil bent, they were out to slay all mages and reduce to second-class status all non-humans.
All Redeemers were utterly and totally immune to all magic except for their own.
All Redeemers could fire magical Bolts of Redemption (a kind of Divine Magic) at foes, typically for 20d6 points of damage.
Then we had the Viles.
The Viles were effectively not killable.
If a Vile was killed, he or she was restored by the power of Shadowgrid Temple, and only the destruction of that Unholy Place in the Abyss could end the Vile threat.
The Viles could kill with a touch, could steal and turn the souls of their foes, and could generally break through most barriers.
In a Lasse Faire situation like that, I was not compelled to lessen the strength of any of my characters therein, and could use the game-breaking spells normally (except for the campaign mentioned above, it was rare that Tempus Fugit came into play. It ... was ... a game-breaker, and simply put very difficult to adjudicate, and harder yet to justify.)
So yeah, you encountered the full strength Edena, complete with the game-breaking spells.
- - -
However, that was there, and this is here.
Here being, that this is official 3rd edition.
Now, in 3rd edition, you can actually do far worse than any mere 12 spells per round.
I have calculated that if a mage took the Epic Feat Multispell for every available feat possible, and then advanced to 100th level doing this, he or she would be able to cast approximately 44 spells per round (43 quickened spells plus one normal.)
These are spells the mage can innately cast, not a quickened spell ability from an actual spell. Throw actual spells to enhance the mage, and it gets really bad.
Add that Two-Minded spell from Necromancer Games to the mix, and you get a ghastly 88 spells per round (since, in this case, the two effects do stack.)
All this, mind you, in a 6 second round. In 2nd edition terms, that would be 880 spells per round.
If this sounds implausible, remember that in the Epic Level Book they state openly that it is perfectly fine for PCs to be gods, and then for them to continue as PCs (and they thought the Chosen were powerful. Bah. Who needs mortality? ...)
There is no limit now.
Any level of power is acceptable.
They bandy about levels of power in the Epic Level Rulebook that are so incredible, compared to the 1st and 2nd edition game, that the highest stat I ever saw in a lifetime of gaming - 32 - is a mundane minor thing now, compared to the 60 achievable for the Epic Character.
This is the norm, the standard, in the ELH.
Edena's 12 Meteor Swarms in a 60 second round wouldn't last 6 seconds against an Epic Level Character (who could well dodge all of them, or simply resist all of them, or have so many hit points they laughed at the damage.)
Edena's 3 Wishes are laughable compared to Epic Spells. There is no Wish ever devised that could duplicate the effects I'm seeing in some of those spells (nothing quite like summoning winter and carrying it around with you.)
Gift of Life is neat, but now you can throw Contingent Resurrection on someone. No need for a cleric - you just throw that spell, and they have an indefinite Life Insurance policy.
Edena could never achieve Epic Level Feats.
He simply could not do it.
He could ... not ... achieve Epic Wisdom, Epic Strength, Epic Endurance, Multispell, and all those others.
He could ... not ... walk on water, balance on clouds, break down adamantine doors, detect magic with his senses, swim or run forever, or any such thing.
And Edena could ... not ... throw Epic Spells.
Edena DID learn how to throw 10th level spells of the Arcane Age - with great difficulty, and by paying a high price for each casting.
But the stunts Edena pulled, such as throwing 12 meteor swarms in one round ... that was the result of Tempus Fugit, Magic Manager, and other such spells, none of which exist in 3rd edition, and none of which were ever allowed by most of my 2nd edition DMs.
Thus, I cannot count that towards any Epic abilities of the character for 3rd edition.
If Edena had had the innate ability to throw 12 spells a round, then yes, that would have been Epic.
The truth is, Edena innately could only cast 1 spell per round, just like any 2nd edition character.
I most certainly cannot use the standard of the TSR/WOTC chatsite for a character conversion!
Many of the characters in the place would be Epic Level, and many would translate into deities in 3rd edition.
It was not a standard game, as it were, and the Lasse Faire system prevalent there would not translate well.
So, I must translate the standard Edena (as he exists in story, and as his power level is in regular games) and not the chatsite Edena.
Don't worry, though ...
When Edena is translated, I will play him, and if he survives he'll gain those Epic Levels.
And then he will be able to do far worse things than any of the stunts he pulled at the chatsite, and all of it by the official rules.
You wait and see!
Right now, I continue to lean (but I have not decided yet) towards making Edena a cleric 20th / mage 1st, making him a 21st level character.
That puts him on a roughly equal footing with the Realms and Greyhawk NPCs of his age (440.)
Whether he went up as a straight cleric, or took a Prestige Class, is still a big question.
What Feats he took is a big question.
And the Skills system ... that will require a lot of translation.
As for spells ... he will have a truly enormous repetoire of Arcane spells.
However, that was something earned in an actual game.
Big risks can entail big rewards ...
A final thing.
If Edena annoyed the PCs at the chatsite, I am not surprised.
Know that the PCs at the chatsite often annoyed Edena just as badly.
Last edited:
WizarDru
Adventurer
Edena_of_Neith said:
Emphasis Mine
Hee, this is great. Your play style is your own choice, of course, but claiming the 3E's epic game is somehow broken because if a character makes 100th level, and thereby he could cast an ungodly number of spells, then I think you missed a few things.
As for the Holy Devastator, it's a +3 holy longsword, but a +7 longsword of holy power in the hands of a paladin. Additionally, it grants a +5 sacred bonus on saves versus spells from evil characters. Finally, if a paladin smites using the Devastator, it allows adding twice your paladin level to damage (as opposed to your paladin level). Market Price is 4,620,315.
Last edited:
James McMurray
First Post
Also, would you have that many spell slots available to fill with quickened spells? If you never took greater capacity (or whatever its called.)
Speaking of which, did Automatic Quicken Spell make it through playtest unchanged? The version I've seen allowed you to take it multiple time and have it apply to higher level spells, until finally you could cast 9th level spells quickened for no slot increase.
Speaking of which, did Automatic Quicken Spell make it through playtest unchanged? The version I've seen allowed you to take it multiple time and have it apply to higher level spells, until finally you could cast 9th level spells quickened for no slot increase.
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