To anyone who bought the EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK

[Edena_of_Neith]

I AM EXONERATED!



Quoting from the ELH:

Your epic characters may shake the pillars of heaven and plumb the depths of hell. And somehow, that is not enough. Perhaps they would like to actually become gods. And why not? Let them join the divine ranks and remain player characters. Becoming deities opens new vistas for roleplaying adventures. Divine ascension need not be the end of the road for your player characters. In fact,. now they can continue to advance as epic characters and have a chance in a fight against most demigods. Eventually lesser deities and intermediate deities will respect their power.

- - -

A very long time ago (in 1985) my character Edena reached 21st level as a cleric.
That being the point where he was too high in level to play in a campaign, I retired him.
However, later on I desired to play him again, and so devised a way to do so:

I played him at whatever level was appropriate for the scenario.
If he gained a level in the lower level game, I gave him a level to add to his original unaltered level.
Thus, if I played him at 5th level, and he achieved 6th level, his top level went from 21st to 22nd level.

If he gained experience, but not enough to gain a level, I extrapolated the experience to what he might have proportionately gained at the high level.

All of this was done with the approval of the many DMs in which I played him (if they did not approve of it, I did not give Edena anything except treasure won in the game in question.)

In this way, Edena - over the course of more than 10 years of playing - went from 21st level to 113th level.

I then had the character dual-class, and started him as a mage.
He made it up to around 9th level as a mage, then I extrapolated as per above beyond that point.

Edena finally became a cleric 121st / mage 40th.

- - -

Now, I was much maligned and poo-pooed for the extravagantly high leveled character.
They made fun of him (and me) on the WOTC message board (to the point where the online staff removed the messages.)
They made fun of him (and me) in the chat rooms.

And yet, Edena could not:

Attack more than once per round.
Turn Undead anymore effectively than a 19th level cleric.
Make saving throws better than a 19th level cleric.
Attack with an attack bonus greater than 30.
Throw any kind of spell higher than 9th level (True Dweomers, when they came out.)
Throw more than one spell per round.

Edena could not:

Use Feats.
Use Epic Feats.
Employ his skills to commit an epic deed.

Edena never advanced any stat beyond 24.

Edena COULD throw a lot of spells, for I extrapolated the spell progression table.
Edena DID have a lot of hit points, by 2nd edition standards (but not by 3rd edition standards.)

Now, I am exonerated. Exonerated!

For now:

A character can attack 4 times in a round.
A character can attack 8 times in a round with the right Feat.
A character can assume another form and attack 4 times in a round per hand the character has, with the right Feats.
A character can cast 2 spells per round with Quickened Spell.
A character can cast 3 spells per round with Quickened Spell and Haste.
A character can cast 4 spells per round with the right Epic Feat.
A character can cast 10 spells (or more) per round with the right Epic Feat, taken over and over.

A character's effective THAC0 (from 2nd edition) can drop infinitely (one of those Epic Dragons has a THAC0 of - 91, incidentally.)

A character can increase in his ability scores infinitely.
Natural scores of 25 can be obtained by 20th level, and go from there.

Characters can obtain spell slots beyond 9th level (for the use of metamagic feats), scaling upward indefinitely.

Characters can throw spells that have saving throw modifiers greater than - 10 (equivalency, in 2nd edition.)

And, of course, there is the paragraph quoted above.
Characters can become deities, and when they do, it is ok for them to remain player characters.
The official, core material says so.

I do believe that those who scoffed at my (pitifully weak, by Epic standards) cleric/mage, were sorely misled about the reality of the D&D game.

They stand corrected. And I stand exonerated.

Edena_of_Neith

 

[Crothian]

Re: I AM EXONERATED!

Edena finally became a cleric 121st / mage 40th.


Edena_of_Neith

Are you planning on converting him level for level into the epic levels to see what he would look like? I did that with my highest level character, but he's only got 40 character levels, plus a template ecl+5. It took a few hours of pouring over all my books to try to remakle him in a way second edition never could. And I'm happy with the result. It was actually enjoyible. I then did my 20th level Bard/4th level Lasher. I stopped at 16th level Bard and then saved up experience until ELH came out. The campaigns over now, but I wanted to know what it would look like. Course I took two of the weakest epic feats (Epic Reputation, and Epic Skill Focus: Perform) because those are the two feats he would want first.

Well, hopefully you'll be able to convert Edena and maybe I'll get to see it posted here. You'll have at least one person not poking fun at such a character.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Actually, I now have a VERY serious problem concerning my character, Edena.

The Gaming Conventions do not allow me to conduct a straight level for level transfer from 2nd edition to 3rd edition for Edena. (The Gaming Conventions, not to be confused with gaming conventions like Origins, are the unspoken Code of Conduct I follow as a Gamer.)

Edena, as I said above, cannot do any of the things that an Epic Level character can do.
Edena's hit points are high (over 200) for 2E, but hardly exceptional in 3E.
Edena's enormous spell roster is possible in 3E only if I were to make a straight level transfer, then use all of his possible Feats to add spell slots (which, in my opinion, would be a ridiculous translation in any case.)

It really follows, therefore, that Edena is not an Epic Level character.
Yet he is very high level.

So, what to do?

A question I am mulling over, with no good answers.

The option that seems most viable is to make him a 20th level cleric / 1st level wizard for 3rd edition (thus giving him one Epic Level.)
It is possible that 10 of his clerical levels are actually levels in a Prestige Class (what class, I am not sure yet.)

Of course, this way strips the character of 139 hard earned levels.
Not entirely fair to the character.

I am at a bit of a loss on the translation, to be honest with you, Crothian.

I AM, at least, exonerated in what I did with the character in the 2nd edition game.
A point that is immensely gratifying, considering the level of abuse I received over his 160 2nd edition levels.

Thanks for your support, Crothian.

 

[Crothian]

I agree, you have to be true to the character and yourself in any translation. Did you use the High Level Book in second edition? Many of those abilities gained by a cleric and a wizard would be considered epic. And the high spell slots are epic. And the hit point increase is going to happen. My rogue has about five times as many hit points in 3rd edition then second. That's a change in the rules, so I don't see a problem with that.

Even in the epic feats there are better or worse ones. Perhaps some of the better epic feats (like the ability to cast Epic Spells) is not something you should take. Or if there are some skills that he would be very good at you should take Epic Skill Focus. You might want to cut down the levels a bit, but that would be up to you. My character I advanced him a little since he's now an NPC and the timeline will be advanced a few centuries next time I run a campaign in it.

Maybe you should just look at some of the epic feats and other things characters at these levels get and see which abilities fit the character. And then based on how many you get, assign a level around that that grants you that many epic feats.

 

[William Ronald]

VINDICATION

Edena,

Your proposal has a great deal to recommend itself. It is efficient and there is a big difference between 1st and 3rd Edition. Here is a possible alternative.

I do have a character I have run since 1st Edition, converted to 2nd Edition, and converted to 3rd using the existing rules. Now, I have to do the same thing again with the Epic Level Handbook.

If Edena of Neith (the character) was converted to 2nd Edition, what would he be in terms of classes and levels? I seem to recall that there was a one to one level conversion between 1st and 2nd Edition.

There were also guidelines on converting 2nd Edition characters to 3rd Edition. Possibly look at the guidelines, after converting Edena to 2nd Edition, and then use your best judgement. You have mentioned the Gaming Conventions that serve as a moral guide to your gaming actions. Let that serve as your moral compass.

If the 160 levels were 2nd edition levels, the conversion process should be fairly easy. Or you may be more comfortable bringing Edena in line to some of the Epic Level NPCs. So, perhaps gauge where Edena is in regards to how you would compare some of the NPCs in the Epic Level Handbook and use that as a baseline for comparison. (Perhaps using the Forgotten Realms characters as a guideline might be appropriate, considering the character's participation in the Realms setting.)

Indeed, Crothian's advice in trying to fit the "feel" of the character makes sense. You have shown good judgement in the past, so I would not worry too much.

Regardless of how you may redesign your character, I look forward to seeing it.

The key question to me about an epic level hero is: Was the character's power earned? Your character has had struggles, defeats, and set backs. So, I think Epic Level status is appropriate. I will not poke fun at your character or any that to paraphrase Churchill, has earned his power through "blood, sweat, toil and tears."

It looks like you have been vindicated. I feel sorry that some people have been rude to you in the past. Perhaps they should apologize now that the rules allow for characters to climb to the heavens themselves. (I would not hold my breath.)

(A general rule people. Try to treat each other with respect. The last time I checked, everyone on this board and on this planet is a human. Life is to short to spend it in hurting others.)

 

[drowdude]

Re: I AM EXONERATED!

If he gained a level in the lower level game, I gave him a level to add to his original unaltered level.
Thus, if I played him at 5th level, and he achieved 6th level, his top level went from 21st to 22nd level.

Um, why... would... er...you... you do.. uh, realize that... uh, it took *MUCH* less XP to go from 5th to 6th, than it did from 21st to 22nd...right?

From what you describe, I think his levels are overly exaggerated.

You should have just added whatever XP he gained from an adventure to his total regardless of whether or not he earned a level...

 

[kreynolds]

There is no steady power progression, it gets absurd.

Oh. So you must have playtested the epic level rules from 21st level to 40th level then? Perhaps even as high as 60th level? If you did playtest it, why didn't you fix it? If you didn't playtest from 21st level to 40th level, then where do you draw your judgement from?

(Note: I'm just pokin' at ya'.)

Seriously though, what made you come to your conclusion that there is no steady power curve? Do you mean there isn't a steady power curve among any given class? Monster? Or is there no steady power curve in relation to all of the classes and monsters?

 

[Numion]

Oh. So you must have playtested the epic level rules from 21st level to 40th level then? Perhaps even as high as 60th level? If you did playtest it, why didn't you fix it? If you didn't playtest from 21st level to 40th level, then where do you draw your judgement from?

From his butthole, of course. This is the internet, what did you expect?

 

[NeoCR]

Re: I AM EXONERATED!

Uh, no Edena. When you fought with my character, you specifically said in front of everyone that Edena could actually hurl twelve Meteor Swarms in a round. This was over a year before the ELH came out.

You also fail to leave out a lot of the things you would do, like cast three Wishes in a row and then Gift of Life, and the various other reasons why you annoyed people. This is not to hound, since I came here to read the posts, as you can see this being my first one, but since you are mentioning us at Wizards, I think it would be good if I stood up to defend those.

 

[Godofredo]

No, the Holy Devastator is a Paladin Weapon. I don't have the book in front of me at the moment, but I recall that in the hands of a Paladin, it becomes a +7 Holy sword with additional abilities, but I don't recall exactly which.


I have to disagree about the art, though. It is, IMHO, fairly uneven. Some excellent art, and then an occasional really bad piece, like the paladin riding on horseback, for example.

Yeah...WizarDru i'm talking about the paladin weapon, can you give me the stats please...

Godo