To anyone who bought the EPIC LEVEL HANDBOOK

[Edena_of_Neith]

Well put, Darkness!

 

[KDLadage]

Re: Concerning Edena, and concerning the ELH

I was fine with all the responses until Regdar started with that Edena cheated stuff.

If you advanced Edena the way you described -- meaning that if you played him in his 4th level days, advanced to 5th, and thus added a level onto the upper end of the character, then I would have to agree that this would be "cheating" in my book. Going from 4th to 5th is _not_ the same thing as going from 40th to 41st.

There was an old article in Dragon that compared the old 1st edition classes against one another to see how they stacked up. The classes were remarkably balanced in the end (single-class wise) but they realized that you have to compare XP to XP, not level to level.

If Edena is a cheating character, then God help us with the Epic Level Rulebook.

I do not understand this statement. The matter of the effectiveness/munchkiness/power levels of the ELH have absolutely nothing to do with the idea of whether Edena is/isn't a character created by a process that one might/might not call cheating. These are two wholly unrelated issues.

For example: If I were any olympic athlete and I have chosen to use an illegal drug, I am cheating and stand a chance of being disqualified. It really does not matter if the drug was some sort of performance enhancing drug, or was recreational with the potential to be performance degrading, now does it?

Edena, with all his levels, could not hope to face an Epic Level character and survive.

Not the point.

An Epic Level character could throw spells that would blast through magic resistance (2nd edition term for spell resistance), and blast through saving throws.

Irrelevant.

An Epic Level character could simply make himself immune to Edena's best spells.

So?

An Epic Level character could throw up defensive spells that no spell, including Miracle, could penetrate.

Good for them, then.

An Epic Level character could have an Armor Class of - 90 (in 2nd edition terms), beyond any hope of being struck in combat by Edena.

OK. And your point?

An Epic Level character could wipe Edena out in a single round of attacks.

And...?

Please -- I realize that this seems harsh, inflamitory and possibly even arrogant on my part. It is not intended to be. I am simply trying to state that you are arguing that because of =A=, then =B= must be true when =A= and =B= are not related in any way what-so-ever.

If the ELH is terrible, poor, mediocre, fair, good, great, superb or legendary in its handling of high level campaigns has no impact what-so-ever on the facts as they are presented dealing with the character Edena.

Allow me to show you the most extreme example of what I am talking about. Assume the 1st edition D&D rules. I am playing a Thief. I need 1500 XP to advance to 2nd level. Now, to make it to 160th level would require (and I am estimating here, I have not looked at those advancement charts in a long, long time) over 12,000,000 XP. Twelve Million Experience Points. (Three-hundred million in second edition).

Now, if I advance from 1st to 2nd, then from 2nd to 3rd, then keep playing 2nd level versions of this thief, advancing him to 3rd each time... and adding this level up to the upper end form some games... I could theoretically advance to 160th level with a mere 240000 XP or so. Two-hundred forty thousand Experience Points.

This represents a compression factor of approximately 50!! In second edition the compression factor is 1250!! or about 2% (or about 0.08% in second edition) of the XP needed, you have advanced to an ungodly level. Yes -- I would call this cheating. And no, this has no bearing what-so-ever on the viability of the ELH.

(edit: corrected numbers based upon information provided below)

 

[kreynolds]

Now I doubt anyone with a sword that big needs me to defend him, but I felt it was pretty wildly known around here that Regdar is a playtest.

Never heard of him.

He's made comments about the ELH for months now.

Any of them useful? I haven't seen them.

He's made his opinion rather well known I thought

Not really. As far as I can tell, he complains about it but then doesn't explain why. That's why I asked him.

and as for "fixing it" You seem to believe playtesters have more power to influnce than they do

Nope. I'm aware of the limits of a playtester.

Wander around back messages about the ELH, Regdar has comment all the way through that all the previews, (And now the finished product.) differ little from the first playtest he was sent.

I'll go take a look.

 

[kreynolds]

Yep, those levels or equivilant were tested.

I never said they weren't. I asked if you tested them.

You know why they didn't change, the testers got ignored after round two.

That stinks. I bet that was frustrating.

Regdar isn't the only tester to say, pretty much most of us felt that way.

I want you to know that I have a very difficult time taking anyone seriously at all when they sound just like a Hollywood wrestler that always refers to themselves in the third person.

Play how you wish, but don't try to say the book isn't something that it's not as a justification for the absurdity of jump that happens, which many who have salivated over the book so they can bring out their characters who beat up on Thor regularly.

If players are running around killing gods, who's fault is that? Can you sanely lay that blame upon the book? That's like getting pissed at the hammer when you dropped it on your own foot. No. You have only one person to blame for that. The DM running the game.

There are epic leaps and bounds in so many areas

That's just it though. I don't see the problem with the leaps in power. Where is the problem? Where is it unbalanced? Are the classes more powerful than the monsters? The other way around? What?

Regdar wanted this book to work, for Regdar and many others it does not.

Damn. You almost got me to put more weight to your words because you might have been a playtester, but then there was that damn third person wrestler thing again.

 

[Buddha the DM]

Re: Re: Concerning Edena, and concerning the ELH

Now, if I advance from 1st to 2nd, then from 2nd to 3rd, then keep playing 2nd level versions of this thief, advancing him to 3rd each time... and adding this level up to the upper end form some games... I could theoretically advance to 160th level with a mere 240000 XP or so. Two-hundred forty thousand Experience Points.

For Lv 160 you need 12,720,000 xp.

I'm just saying that in case someone wants to know what the value actually is. I don't want to argue with any one.

 

[Psion]

Re: Concerning Edena, and concerning the ELH

And it is great because, after this book, there will be no more munchkins - the term munchkin has been made obsolete. Sneering players will never truly be able to brandish that word again against their fellows.

You're smoking something.

Not saying these people are right, but ELH has already acquired the name the "book of twink" over on nutkinland. There are people who will call you a munchkin if you use the book at all.

But then, there are people who will call you a munchkin if...
- you use classes like Archmage or Spellfire wielder
- you use classes like Alienist, Summoner, or Elemental Savant.
- you use classes like Weapon Master
- you play 3rd edition
- you play any version of D&D

Munchkin is one of those terms that is so subjective that trying to actually use it for communication is near meaningless.

To me, Munchkin is simply a player (or character) who strives for power and capabilities to prevail in a survival situation to the exclusion of character concept, beleivability, or logic. Simply using ELH is not going to earn the moniker munchkin from me. But it certainly has the potential to be used in such an abusive fashion.

So, in short, I know that you (or anyone older than 16 who continues to brandish 120+ level characters) are probably defensive about the term munchkin. But if you think the ELH is going to change anything, I think you are fooling yourself.

 

[HeavyG]

Re: Re: Re: Concerning Edena, and concerning the ELH

For Lv 160 you need 12,720,000 xp.

I'm just saying that in case someone wants to know what the value actually is. I don't want to argue with any one.

Actually, a 2nd edition thief would require 300 million xps or so to get to 160th level.

 

[KDLadage]

I have edited my above post to reflect these numbers. It has been a long time since I played 1st edition, and I never really got into 2nd edition.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello all!

There are epic leaps and bounds in so many areas, and others, you have to pull an Edena of Neith, who seemed to have cheated his way to 113th or whatever, to accomplish anything.

Speaking as someone who roleplayed a character from 3rd-level to 117th, fairly - though requiring many years to do so. I think I must be one of the few here qualified to say that it can be done (Edena probably the only other in this thread?).

One thing that should be addressed is that Epic Levelling (3rd Ed.) is much slower than previous editions. Simply because the XP tables for previous editions 'bottomed off' at about 10th-level.

So the XP needed for 10th to 11th was the same as the XP needed for 30th to 31st but obviously the encounters had to be more challenging to facilitate higher levels of play - vis a vis more XP and by extension quicker levelling. In short, the higher you ascended the faster levelling became.

With the advent of Challenge Ratings in 3rd Ed. this is no longer the case.

I presume the ELH has no conversion method for previous editions? So we are left with the brief Conversion Manual that was available at the introduction of 3rd Ed.

However, a 100th-level character in 3rd Ed. is much more powerful than such a character in previous editions. So it is probably a wise move to reduce even single class characters in the process.

To which I proffer:

Character Class (type)

Experience tables from previous incarnations were not equal. To compensate for these facts multiply the levels as follows.

Clerics Levels above 9th: x0.6
Druids Levels above 13th: (14th) x2; (15th) x4
Levels above 16th: x1.33
Fighters Levels above 9th: x0.66
Paladins/Rangers Levels above 9th: x0.8
Rogues/Bards Levels above 11th: x0.58
Wizards Levels same

eg. (former) 25th-level Cleric
16 levels above 9th x0.6 = 9.6 (round down, although that would mean the character has 60% XP in their current level already).
9 + 9 = (now) 18th-level Cleric

eg. (former) 30th-level Paladin
21 levels above 9th x0.8 = 16.8
9 + 16 = (now) 25th-level Paladin

eg. (former) 19th-level Druid
6 levels above 13th. Level 14 = +2, Level 15 = +4, remaining Levels 4 (16-19) x1.33 = 5.32
13 + 2 + 4 + 5.32 = (now) 24th-level Druid

Number of Different Classes

First Class Levels same
Second Class Levels x0.8
Third Class Levels x0.6
Fourth Class Levels x0.4
Fifth Class Levels x0.2

eg. (former) 62nd-level Cavalier/28th-level Cleric/27th-level Wizard
First Class
53 Cavalier Levels above 9th x 0.8 = 42.4
9 + 42 = 51st-level Cavalier
Second Class
19 Cleric Levels above 9th x 0.6 = 11.4
9 + 11 = 20 (second class) x 0.8 = 16th-level Cleric
Third Class
27 Wizard Levels remain same
27 (third class) x 0.6 = 16th-level Wizard
Total: 83 levels

The total class levels can then be distributed amongst the classes at the players discretion.

 

[Upper_Krust]

If Regdar went Epic, he'd kick the living daylight outa Edena.

Redgar would kick Edena's butt, for sure!

Wouldn't this depend on the relative power attributed to both characters!?

Edena isn't an Epic Level character ... well, at least, I don't think he is.

If hes above 20th-level then hes Epic Level! Simple as that!

Simply depends on how you plan to convert the character? If indeed you do plan to convert him!?

Edena may be a cleric/mage 120/40 in 2nd edition, but I really do not think he is an Epic Level character in 3rd edition.

Edena IS on the verge of being Epic Level, however.

Having read Edena's adventures and exploits - if that character isn't epic level then no one is!