To balance high level mages.

[the Jester]

It sounds like the assumption is that the wizard is prepared and the fighter isn't.

Well, if they both know the fight's coming the fighter will have the appropriate countermeasures ready: a ring of spell storing holding an antimagic field. Or else arrows that has an antimagic field around it to go along with his four arrows per round plus one for rapid shot plus one for his haste action... sooner or later he'll hit, and even if he comes close the wizard comes under the influence of the amf long enough to be a pincushion.

I know, this relies on magical aid, yadda yadda... show me a 20th level fighter with no magic items and I'll show you a thread about whether a naked 15th level fighter can take an armed 9th level fighter. That isn't a valid point; a 20th level character WILL have magical aid.

So our super-buffed flying stoneskin displaced mirror imaged wizard has a very good chance of blowing away the fighter in the first round or two (using timestop and lots of damage or will save effects); but our super-buffed, cloak of flying-wearing, hasted fighter has a very good chance of destroying the wizard in a few hits with incredible amounts of damage. If they're both prepared it's tough to say who'll win; if only one is prepared it's easy, he wins.

Keep in mind that all these scenarios are assuming the wizard packs all his spells with high-level fighters in mind. My first 9th-level spell was Wail of the Banshee, which hits a fighter right in his best save. No sugar there. Wizards don't always have the perfect spell for every situation.

 

[LostSoul]

First off, I'd just like to say that Contengancy can only prepare a level 6 or lower spell

You can always fill it with a Dimension Door, Stoneskin, or Teleport.

The Wizard's best ability is to choose the circumstances of the battle. He can get out of danger while unprepared easier than a Fighter can.

 

[Broken Fang]

Nice idea Jester but Anti-magic Field is centered on you...not arrows. And then only 10' radius.

Plus our 20th level Wizard is probably invisible (improved of course), you say fine our Fighter had somethings-of-see-invisible. The Wizard then notices said Fighter targeting him, so he uses the ol back-up bag of dust of dissapearance (which by the way cannot be detected using see invisible).

Also a smart Wizard has spells based on all saves or even better ones with no save.

At high level it all depends on teh gear the Fighter has, IMO, since the Wizard can protect himself pretty well with multiple extended spells (in effect always on). The Fighter HAS to be able to Fly, See Invisible (True Seeing is better as mentioned above), and HAS to rely on finding their items....the Wizard just has to make his.

 

[Broken Fang]

Lost Soul - you are dead on. Fighter smacks the crap out ot the Wizard...Wizard then Teleports as a free action to his favorite temple of healing (where he has already paid for his insurance policy to heal him in whatever way necessary).

 

[Hammerhead]

If the fighter smacks the wizard hard enough, he won't live long enough to teleport to a temple. By the way, there's a nifty spell called Dimensional Anchor. It greatly helps against cowardly sorts. If the fighter has some spell storing junk, or his sword locks down people he strikes, then the wizard will have a fun time.

A high level fighter will either have magical movement aids and exceptional detection powers, or he'll have allies that can provide those effects. If the fighter has no ability to detect invisible guys, then someone would have killed before. He wouldn't be high level, he'd be dead. Invisible seeing goggles of night would be a nice gift for a human fighter, and his friends would probably get sick of having to keep an extra fly spell handy so Joe the tank doesn't stand there with a stupid look on his face when flying enemies attack yet again.

If the fighter is poorly equiped - either in sheer value or poor choices - then of course the wizard wins. But if the wizard relies on crap spells like Drawji's instant summons, then he's going to have problems too. If you assume the wizard takes the most lethal spells but the fighter has crap, then of course there will be problems.

Maybe the fighter activates his Helm of Teleportation and then hangs around his favorite temple. The incredible possible variance in items at high levels makes the battle essentially a toss up. It comes down to who wants to win, and thus prepares in the most efficient way. A fighter built to hunt wizards would probably be hell on most wizards, just as a wizard with the right loadout would be hell on most fighters.

Finally, high level fighters would probably be rare outside adventuring groups. A single classed fighter is a pure killing machine, devoted to combat. If he acted more often as an individual, rather than in a supporting group that covers his weakness, he'd probably have multiclassed some. Some rogue or ranger levels for the skills add some nice abilities to the fighter's bag of tricks.

BTW, here's a fun trick for the fighter. Fly or teleport next to Mr. flying mage, and then drop an AMF from an ioun stone of spell storing. Both of you now have a nice long fall that the fighter can take more easily. If the fighter was hasted, then adding a grapple attack becomes possible too.

Ultimately, the unprepared guy always loses. Coup de grace.

 

[LostSoul]

If the fighter smacks the wizard hard enough, he won't live long enough to teleport to a temple. By the way, there's a nifty spell called Dimensional Anchor. It greatly helps against cowardly sorts. If the fighter has some spell storing junk, or his sword locks down people he strikes, then the wizard will have a fun time.

I guess I didn't consider the Fighter having access to Dimensional Anchor (and casting it somehow before the Wizard gets to act) that likely.

 

[Broken Fang]

Contingency is how he would teleport to the local temple my friend. Also why does it sound like the Fighter has to be a Wizard to fight one? Goggles of Invisibility, Swords that cause Dimensional Anchor when the target is hit, Anit-magic Field, Ioun Stones w/ spells, Rings of Spell Storing, Cloak of Flying...gee doesn't a Fighter want armor ad weapons anymore? Don't forget seeing invisible isn't good enough...dust of disappearance is cheap for a Wizard to make and See Invisible DOE NOT WORK against it...so I assume all those Fighters are walking around with True Seeing items as well?

 

[Broken Fang]

Oh yeah and I don't believe the original poster mentioned either having a party behind them. If you assume the Fighter has a group of buddies why wouldn't you assume the Wizard has a group of buddies?

Also how many people have had a Wizard who spent all his experiance to make items for the rest of the party?

 

[Hammerhead]

I haven't played a high level wizard in 3e, so I don't know much XP they spend. However, my cleric had scribe scroll and craft magic arms and armor. I made celestial chain for one fighter, turned some +1 weapons into +3 and +4 equivalents, made utility scrolls whenever I remembered, and made some nice stuff for myself. If I hadn't made items for other people, I would have had another level. Our wizard generally made cheaper stuff, and was stingy at first. The resistence items, ability boosters, boots of speed, and such that he made still sapped his XP but were very valuable. We had planned another item creation campaign of much more versatile items but the game ended before we could launch it. We wanted to make Ioun Stone of Spell storing for Tenser's transformation, heal, or antimagic field, better cloaks of resistence, some blindsight or see invis items. So yes, spellcasters do spend lots of XP making items.

Improved Invisibility is on most of the "ideal" sorcerer spell lists that I've seen. Did you know that a level 8 sorcerer will probably be able to completely cloak a 4 man group with improved invisibility? That kind of threat is why goggles of see invisible stuff are very important. It's easy to keep away from an invis purge, and see invis is self only. True seeing is high level and costs 250 each cast. With the threat starting so early, and since it never goes away, a permanent item is good way to deal with it.

The reason it's a good idea for a fighter to have other items besides weapons and armor is so he isn't a bystander. How about our group's battle with an evil wizard? 7 good guys, 2 bad guys: 9 people that were flying and improved invisible - we cast of of prep spells before the fight. 2/2 evil dudes see invis. 2/7 good guys see invisible. After the first round, in which our wizard (with see invis) drops to a Finger of Death, 1/6 characters see invisible. Do you see the problem here? If our DM hadn't been generous in allowing people to guess the locations of invisible enemies, then our fighter types would have been even more useless than they were. If we hadn't found an intelligent magical item (that was randomly rolled) with the see invisible at will property (also randomly rolled), our group would have done even worse than it did.

If both sides have a group, then the individual strengths and weaknesses of each character aren't as important as the overall effect. It doesn't so much matter if the fighter can combat flying improved invisible guys so much as the group has an effective plan for opposing them.

 

[Broken Fang]

I'm not saying things would be different for a group...but the original post was Fighter vs Wizard...no Fighter and group vs Wizard and group.