To James Jacobs: A Growing Problem with Dungeon Magazine

[James Jacobs]

Dungeon by no means sticks 100% to the SRD. That's a ridiculous over-simplification. Nor do we require our authors to adhere to the core books. Look at our three adventure paths. Each one is based on a concept that isn't core. Shackled City makes heavy use of demodands. Age of Worms makes heavy use of the Spawn of Kyuss. Savage Tide makes heavy use of Fiendish Codex I.

Take the latest issue, #143, for example.

Adventure 1 is an Eberron adventure that makes heavy use of that campaign's rules (artificers and zakya rakshasas and lightning rails, for starters).

Adventure 2 makes heavy use of Heroes of Battle, monsters from non-core books like Stormwrack and Monster Manual II, non-core feats like Improved Toughness and Practiced Spellcaster, new magic items from Tome of Magic (the teeth of Dahlver-Nar), and prestige classes like dread pirates and tempests.

Adventure 3 is heavilly dependant on non-core monsters like the ethergaunts and the nerras, and is also quite dependant on a new magic item.

The backdrop on Farshore uses non-core base classes like swashbuckler and favored soul.

And this isn't an exception issue, this is a normal issue of the magazine.

We DO use a lot of non-core material in every issue. It just turns out that non-core spells are the least-used non-core elements, which is what the OP was concerned about. And rightfully so. In future issues, I'll be keeping an eye on NPC spell selection and I'll see what I can do to vary it up.

But in the meantime, Dungeon is by no means an SRD-only magazine. We actually encourage our authors to turn to non-core sources for inspiration and for encoutners.

 

[Mark CMG]

Doesn't anyone else think it's a little ironic that Paizo is one of the only companies that has a license to publish professional adventures with non-core WotC material yet they stick with SRD material that ANYONE could publish?

Well, they use other stuff (as James Jacobs has posted) but I think their primary market advantages are the price difference and consistent quality. Dungeon has always been, IMO, and will likely always be the best bang for the DM's buck. When a new DM asks me what they should get beyond the core books a subscription to Dungeon the first thing I suggest.

 

[takasi]

I should probably add that #143 is one of my favorite issues ever. I love the cover, I love the presentation for Tides of Dread and Farshore and I love the non-core material.

And this isn't an exception issue, this is a normal issue of the magazine.

I would disagree with this statement specifically concerning core vs non-core material. I have posted about this issue many, many, many times. If it needs to be presented I will dig through every single issue in 2006 and make the case again. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the design philosophy as outlined again and again is to avoid non-core references as much as possible.

143 is a very well balanced issue. I wish more were like it.

 

[GwydapLlew]

But in the meantime, Dungeon is by no means an SRD-only magazine. We actually encourage our authors to turn to non-core sources for inspiration and for encoutners.

And to paraphrase James and Erik in previous threads (both here and at paizo.com): "If writers don't submit it, we can't use it."

If you want more non-core usage, then submit more quality adventures with non-core items.

 

[James Jacobs]

I would disagree with this statement specifically concerning core vs non-core material. I have posted about this issue many, many, many times. If it needs to be presented I will dig through every single issue in 2006 and make the case again. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the design philosophy as outlined again and again is to avoid non-core references as much as possible.

143 is a very well balanced issue. I wish more were like it.

I'm glad you enjoyed #143, but you are indeed incorrect that Dungeon's design philosophy is to avoid non-core references. Our design philosophy is to favor core adventures, as in adventures that take place in a baseline D&D world that is most easilly adapted to other campaign settings. A core adventure can use as much non-core material as it needs or wants to make the adventure cool. This is not a contradiction, despite how it might sound.

The amount of non-core material in #143 is really not all that different from the average issue, believe it or not. Even though the average issue doesn't feature Eberron or Forgotten Realms adventures.

I'm not interested in seeing a play-by-play breakdown of how much non-core material each issue used. That's useless trivia. The point is that we strive to present fun adventures, and that usually involves drawing rules from any number of WotC books. Not just Eberron or Forgotten Realms stuff.

 

[Mark CMG]

Dungeon by no means sticks 100% to the SRD. That's a ridiculous over-simplification. Nor do we require our authors to adhere to the core books. Look at our three adventure paths. Each one is based on a concept that isn't core.

(. . .)

We DO use a lot of non-core material in every issue. It just turns out that non-core spells are the least-used non-core elements, which is what the OP was concerned about. And rightfully so. In future issues, I'll be keeping an eye on NPC spell selection and I'll see what I can do to vary it up.

But in the meantime, Dungeon is by no means an SRD-only magazine. We actually encourage our authors to turn to non-core sources for inspiration and for encoutners.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the design philosophy as outlined again and again is to avoid non-core references as much as possible.

He just posted the opposite in the post to which you replied.

 

[takasi]

This is not a contradiction, despite how it might sound.

I disagree, but I won't go into too much detail (quotes and whatnot). I'll just say that as I understand it the logic for one would seem to apply to the other.

That's useless trivia.

It's evidence to show the pattern, just as the examples you provided are support for issue 143's balance. Ideals are nice (33% for example) but what's actually produced is more important IMO.

 

[Treebore]

I'm sorry, but if a DM coesn't "have the time or inclination to change things around", then they don't have time or inclination to be playing.

Dungeon needs, yes, really needs to appeal as broadly as possible. Other than a few thousand people, most who are frequently seen on ENWorld, the other 45,000 buyers of the magazine probably have the "core" books only. A few more may even have some of the Monster Manuals. Some even have all of them.

Beyond that it is a hodgepodge of who has what.

So the only possible way to maximize utility of the magazine to the most possible is to stay with primarily "core" rules.

After all, the "other" books are all purely "optional", correct? There is no push, or mandate for all published books to be considered "core", right?

So how could Dungeon, in good conscience, "push" people to buy non-core product by using rules and other items from those sources.

Those books are all "optional", so why should Paizo treat them as anything required, either required for them to use, or for others to know about? They are "nice to have" books, for DM's to add new elements from, and have a fair degree of hope it isn't broken, even though there is definitely still a chance of that.

So I find it curious that some people find so many books beyond the "core 3" are "core".

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

I'm not sure why those Dragon editors have been so hush-hush with the next Demonomicon. I can confirm it'll be in issue #353, though.

As for who it's about, I can offer this clue: The opening poem this time around is a sonnet.

Somebody help me out. I'm not into all this sissy poetry!

 

[takasi]

So how could Dungeon, in good conscience, "push" people to buy non-core product by using rules and other items from those sources?

There are three adventures in every issue. Are you saying that if one of those adventures had a lot of undefined references to Tome of Magic or Heroes of Horror that it would make the entire issue worthless to DMs without these sourcebooks?

Those books may be "optional" but their sales also help keep the D&D license healthy.

Dragon "pushes" people all the time with their fancy "product spotlights" and their WotC and Paizo catalog entries. Some of them have taken up more space than even the beefier Dungeon adventures!