To Kill or Not to Kill

Calico_Jack73 said:
As long as resurrection has a 100% success rate death is an inconvenience... nothing more. :)

Yes but without a 100% chance your character gets taken away from you on pure luck and there is nothing you can do about it.

In 3rd ed the chance is 100% but the player has a choice about it (when the spell is cast the soul learns all relevant info about caster alignment, etc). If you just had a glorious death you could decide to stay in 'heaven' or not, entirely up to you.

In 2nd ed the chance was random, weak con wizards would permanently die and that was it. Although the chance did increase with the number of deaths you had no control over whether your first or twenty first death would be the permanent one. (bad experience with a DM may be clouding my judgement tho)

If you like death but want a reasonable amount of control over coming back then you could the WFRP method of fate points - you had a 100% chance of survival as long as you had spare fate points, but once they were gone you had 0%. Since the number of points is recorded clearly it is upto the character how reckless they act at any given point.
 

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BeauNiddle said:
Yes but without a 100% chance your character gets taken away from you on pure luck and there is nothing you can do about it.

Being that you (as a player) had to make specific choices and choose specific tactics that may or may not have gotten you dead, I don't see how it is pure luck at all.
 

Calico_Jack73 said:
To the first statement I have to say...

[whine/rant tags]GROW A FRICKING THICKER SKIN PEOPLE!!!![/whine/rant tags]

It seems that some people are reading too deep into other people's responses. They are trying to be insulted so they can fire something back. GROW UP

Yeah, giant red letters and multiple exclaimation points really tell me who I need to take maturity advice from... Part of mature conversation may be a 'thick skin' but a far more important part is considering the effect and implications of your words. I don't think henry is so immature that he can't have the implications of his comments pointed out to him. Henry, being the mature person I expected, gave back a fairly reasonable explaination of why he phrased things the way he did, and I can see that his intent was towards the exact circumstance, not all players who enjoy immunity games. All skins were intact, except apparently yours. And I've got a fairly good idea as a result of who needs to do the growing.

kahuna Burger
 

Elder-Basilisk said:
In 3.x, if you die and your party loses the fight/runs away, odds are good that you'll end up in an orc's cookpot or as a zombie. No Raise Dead for you.

True... however check out True Resurrection, Resurrection, and Reincarnation. Cut off a piece of hair from a fallen comrade as you flee and regular Resurrection will work. Reincarnate will work with a bit of hair too and is only a 4th level Druid spell (compared to a 7th level Resurrection or 5th level Raise Dead which requires a whole body). The point is that if you want to come back you can and it isn't that hard. Heck, given that most of the creatures on the chart for Reincarnation are pretty potent I'm suprised more people don't opt for it instead. The only abilities that change are physical ones and in almost every case except for the Goblin or Kobold you gain more than you lose. You don't lose any previous abilities. You could play a human fighter, get the bonus feat and extra skill points, die, and then be reincarnated as something with more abilites and lose nothing from before except a level that you'll make back soon enough and a Con point that may be more than made up for by your new race (You get +4 to your CON if you come back as a troglodyte).
Reincarnate also only costs 1000gp and no XP penalty to the caster.

"Oh poor me, I went from being a human with a lifespan of roughly 80 years to an elf. I'll live well over 350 years now." :D
 
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Kahuna Burger said:
And I've got a fairly good idea as a result of who needs to do the growing.

Okay, seriously... I'm not a mod or anything, but can't you people do this elsewhere? (Everyone involved, not just KB). Take it to e-mail or something... we're trying to have a discussion here.
 

What the hell people! After all we play to enjoy ourselves.A good player spends a lot of "experience points" for the creation of his character.And what i mean is not just a foolish spreadsheet but all the details that built our imaginary alter ego. For some people their characters carry a portion of their soul.Now, i can't find a reason why a DM should kill a player without a really serious reason -destroying that way more than a gaming session..A good player knows that he can die and needs no threats from the DM to roleplay realistically.If my character dies, the next thing my comrades are going to try to do is to find a way to revive me.I wouldn't easily change character that simple for the bond is strong.I don't need any sympathy from my Dm,for the times my players feared they would or even died where more than a few. :D





______________________________________________________

Misty morning, clouds in the sky
Without warning, the wizard walks by
Casting his shadow, weaving his spell
Funny clothes, tinkling bell
Never talking
Just keeps walking
Spreading his magic
Evil power disappears
Demons worry when the wizard is near
He turns tears into joy
Everyone's happy when the wizard walks by
Never talking
Just keeps walking
Spreading his magic....

BLACK SABBATH
 

Elrik_DarkFury said:
For some people their characters carry a portion of their soul.


0046_12.gif
 

Thick Skin implies that you can take criticism of both the critical type AND the derogatory type and sift through it for good advice to apply and then be better for it and not take that criticism personally. You imply that I am immature. Fine, you are welcome to that opinion and I take no offense because I know that everyone has an opinion of everything. I know that I was mature enough to serve this country in the military for the last 9 years, be separated from my familiy many times during that period, and I was certainly mature enough to be put in charge of training and supervising numerous younger troops. My personal track record of maturity for myself outweighs what little you know of me from one post on the board. Just as you are entitled to an opinion, so am I. My opinion is that people tend to take offense where none is intended because everyone wants a little drama in their lives and drama is conflict. :)

I LIKE BIG RED LETTERS WITH EXCLAMATION POINTS BEHIND THEM SO I'LL USE THEM WHEN I LIKE!!!

:) :) :) :)
 

Elder-Basilisk said:
Quite frankly, this seems like nonsense to me no matter how often it's repeated.
Alright...

You cite one instance in a pre-written module where the PCs won't be able to reach a city in time to get the job done. But that's just one instance. There are numerous other instances when such isn't the case, and once teleport is available, the occurance of such instances drops dramatically.

I mean, I agree that, in a game that feature medusa, basalisk, draconic breath weapons, disintegrate rays, and other insta- or near-insta-death effects, having insta-cure effects for death is needed just for continuity. However, if such things aren't common (and might not be just as a matter of personal taste), then the insta-cures become less of a balancing factor and more of a crutch for poor decision making. And besides, the number one reason often sited in favor of such magics is that of attachment to the character. To that all I really have to say is to be more careful next time around.

Remember, I'm not against restoring life to a PC (there likely aren't too many GMs that are), but rather against the limitless amount of life restoration that the spells grant compared to, say, 1E/2E where you knew with each character death that you were also one step closer to irrevocable death. While some folks might hold themselves back from over-using it to the point of cheesiness, that doesn't remove the potential for cheesiness that comes with it, which is what is often being removed by groups that choose to not have these spells as a part of game play (or, like me, to reduce their frequency and availability).

Or, we can look at it from a different angle (that being how to include them so that the cheese-factor doesn't come up): Rather than death-cures being available simply because Core demographics indicates that X number of people in a city of size Y (or perhaps even a PC being able to cast one), they instead become something that must be sought out and becomes a relevant part of game play, often involving quests, terms of service, oaths of behavior, etc.
 

Calico_Jack73 said:
True... however check out True Resurrection, Resurrection, and Reincarnation. Cut off a piece of hair from a fallen comrade as you flee and regular Resurrection will work. Reincarnate will work with a bit of hair too and is only a 4th level Druid spell (compared to a 7th level Resurrection or 5th level Raise Dead which requires a whole body). The point is that if you want to come back you can and it isn't that hard.

Well yes and no. If I want to keep playing, it's often even easier to create a new character. My comrades don't even need to provoke AoOs by cutting off a finger or whatever in order for me to do that. So, unless the DM goes out of his way to punish a player for having a character die (can't play for x sessions, start at first level and just die again (so you might as well leave the group), etc), there's no particular reason for the player to fear death no matter how hard it is to come back. Sure, playing and developing a character takes time and you grow to enjoy your role, but you'd enjoy playing a new role as well.

And, while there are spells that can bring a character back, they are often out of reach of the PCs. Resurrection is not practical (in terms of the cost) below level 10 or so and certainly isn't always available. (Even the FRCS version of Toril doesn't have 13th level clerics on every streetcorner). It's even less available "in the field" since the 3.5 material components are too expensive to keep on hand "in case they're needed." Heck, by the level that Raise Dead is available in the field (assuming you keep the material component on hand which isn't practical), you're already facing Slay Living, Disintegrate, etc--effects that can preclude either Raise Dead or Reincarnate. (Of course good old Death Knell and the Death Touch domain ability--available from day 1 just like the kobold cookpots--do that too.)

Reincarnation is a viable option if you have a druid in the party, but I don't like it. (Come to think of it, I don't much like druids either as they're normally portrayed). And, of course reincarnation does have that good old 1/2e chance of getting hosed (so let me see, my strength goes down because I'm a halfling/my con goes down because I'm an elf/now that I'm a dwarf my ranger/barbarian/rogue starts taking xp penalties/etc.)

It's quite possible to die and not have it be practical to come back. From level 1 to level 10, there's Death Knell, Death Touch, the wyvern or orcs that eat you after killing you, Enervation, level/stat draining undead, Animate Dead, etc. From level 10 on, there's Slay Living, Destruction, Finger of Death, Disintegrate, level/stat draining undead, enervation, energy drain, talismans of ultimate evil, weapons of life stealing, etc. Once you get into the high levels, the possibilities become endless. True Ressurection may fix most everything but that doesn't come cheaply and isn't widely available (in most campaigns) either.

Heck, given that most of the creatures on the chart for Reincarnation are pretty potent I'm suprised more people don't opt for it instead. The only abilities that change are physical ones and in almost every case except for the Goblin or Kobold you gain more than you lose. You don't lose any previous abilities. You could play a human fighter, get the bonus feat and extra skill points, die, and then be reincarnated as something with more abilites and lose nothing from before except a level that you'll make back soon enough and a Con point that may be more than made up for by your new race (You get +4 to your CON if you come back as a troglodyte).
Reincarnate also only costs 1000gp and no XP penalty to the caster.

"Oh poor me, I went from being a human with a lifespan of roughly 80 years to an elf. I'll live well over 350 years now." :D

As I said before, I don't like reincarnation. And while it could prove to be a boon for some characters, I don't think most characters would like it either--especially not if they ended up as a troglodyte or something.
 

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