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D&D 5E To much 5th edition content?

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/They)
The overlap seems to go one way. IME a lot of Storygames people find the OSR's ideas interesting and worth borrowing. But there doesn't seem to be anything like the willingness from the other side to look at Storygames - indeed many of them seem to treat it as a culture war thing.
That seems pretty consistent with my experience. OSR folks seem almost violently opposed to storygame techniques, whereas storygame folks are willing to borrow techniques from any and all other styles when it suits their goals.

The main thing I see that reflects my interests in this essay’s presentation of OSR is the emphasis on player agency and PC decision-making.
 

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S'mon

Legend
The overlap seems to go one way. IME a lot of Storygames people find the OSR's ideas interesting and worth borrowing. But there doesn't seem to be anything like the willingness from the other side to look at Storygames - indeed many of them seem to treat it as a culture war thing.

Yup. I think there is a fear of corruption/contagion - add storygame elements to an OSR game, now you have a storygame. And Classic purists often see OSR as a corrupting influence too. Storygamers are often hostile to Trad play too, of course, but without the Purity/Corruption thing.

Most OC gamers are just desperate to play, so I don't often see them being dismissive of other styles! :D
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/They)
Yup. I think there is a fear of corruption/contagion - add storygame elements to an OSR game, now you have a storygame. And Classic purists often see OSR as a corrupting influence too. Storygamers are often hostile to Trad play too, of course, but without the Purity/Corruption thing.

Most OC gamers are just desperate to play, so I don't often see them being dismissive of other styles! :D
Dismissive of other styles, certainly not, but their goals can easily end up clashing with other styles. The most obvious being when you just want to play your OC, but the trad DM won’t allow it because such-and-such race doesn’t exist in their world, or whatever.
 


Yup. I think there is a fear of corruption/contagion - add storygame elements to an OSR game, now you have a storygame. And Classic purists often see OSR as a corrupting influence too. Storygamers are often hostile to Trad play too, of course, but without the Purity/Corruption thing.

Most OC gamers are just desperate to play, so I don't often see them being dismissive of other styles! :D
Storygames were a reaction against Trad so I get that. But I really don't understand the purity thing being a big deal.
Dismissive of other styles, certainly not, but their goals can easily end up clashing with other styles. The most obvious being when you just want to play your OC, but the trad DM won’t allow it because such-and-such race doesn’t exist in their world, or whatever.
This I definitely agree with.
 

teitan

Legend
I’m still scratching my head.

everyone talks about all this 5e content and acts like there is so much material for it and what I see are a bunch of big adventures and Tasha’s, Xanathar’s, Mordy’s and Volo’s, now Fizban’s and some campaign settings. A girl posted a tik tok video the other day about how she was financially stable and getting into D&D and then her carrying a slowly climbing supply of books as a player like it was soooo many books. Man, anyone else remember when it was 2 or 3 books a month instead of 3-4 a year and they were supplements and not adventures???
 


DND_Reborn

Legend
I’m still scratching my head.

everyone talks about all this 5e content and acts like there is so much material for it and what I see are a bunch of big adventures and Tasha’s, Xanathar’s, Mordy’s and Volo’s, now Fizban’s and some campaign settings. A girl posted a tik tok video the other day about how she was financially stable and getting into D&D and then her carrying a slowly climbing supply of books as a player like it was soooo many books. Man, anyone else remember when it was 2 or 3 books a month instead of 3-4 a year and they were supplements and not adventures???
While I can only speak for myself, it is just the feeling that 5E is reaching that point, not that it has been there for the last two years or something. I still have most of my AD&D 1E books, and there is more than my 5E.

I think a part of it also is the stuff they are making isn't what some of us are asking for (maybe a minority??), so it is a bit of a let down and it just feels like they are publishing books, not to make the game "more", but only for the money (hey, who can blame them, right?).

Yeah where is the bloat? looks at his 3.5 and 2e shelves… his half a shelf of 5e
Sure, but how much of 3.5 and 2E did you buy? Do you have all the 5E stuff? Are they proportional?
 

teitan

Legend
While I can only speak for myself, it is just the feeling that 5E is reaching that point, not that it has been there for the last two years or something. I still have most of my AD&D 1E books, and there is more than my 5E.

I think a part of it also is the stuff they are making isn't what some of us are asking for (maybe a minority??), so it is a bit of a let down and it just feels like they are publishing books, not to make the game "more", but only for the money (hey, who can blame them, right?).


Sure, but how much of 3.5 and 2E did you buy? Do you have all the 5E stuff? Are they proportional?
So there is a huge difference. Back in 2e and up to 4e it was 2-3 books a month. Not a year. A month. Two years ago we were begging on these forums to see more content and they’ve actually barely scratched the surface of content. Barely and people are talking about edition bloat. Five additional rules supplements plus the core books. That’s not bloat. That’s two months. No I didn’t buy all those books every month but even buying a book every month or so you still had more content in 6 months than they’ve put out for 5e and people are talking about edition bloat.

examples of additional content they could explore that aren’t just settings:

Undead book ala Mordy, Fizban and Volo. Undead races, NPCs, aberrations included, including PC options.

weapons and equipment Book that includes more rules on magic items, classes built on magic items, magic item creation by PCs. A more martial based subclasses built around using items and weapons and taking control of the battlefield like the old warlord class from 4e. Include some siege rules.

Dungeoneering supplement with classes focused on exploration and dungeoneering and expanded monsters for the dungeon, new slimes, molds, fungi, revised monsters galore.

reprints of material from the adventures like vehicles rules, seafaring rules and even campaign setting material like the stuff on the cities for those who don’t buy the adventures. If you’re going to do reprints en masse like the new Multiverse book why not?
 


DND_Reborn

Legend
Barely and people are talking about edition bloat.
You seem to be missing the point that myself (and I expect others) are making. We aren't saying 5E is bloated now, but it is getting a little on the heavy side, leaning nicely into bloat.

And no one is denying 2E and probably 3E (I only played it one year) had bloat. The "Guides" to everything in 2E were ridiculous with bloat alone!

Two years ago we were begging on these forums to see more content and they’ve actually barely scratched the surface of content.
And most of the content people have been screaming for they haven't given us... which makes the material they do put out even more disappointing IMO.

Basically when we get to 200+ feats and 100+ subclasses from WOTC call me on the rules bloat.
I don't think they'll make the mistakes with feats again (no feat chains), but the subclasses are already over half-way to your goal. That is, it is getting bloated.
 

teitan

Legend
You seem to be missing the point that myself (and I expect others) are making. We aren't saying 5E is bloated now, but it is getting a little on the heavy side, leaning nicely into bloat.

And no one is denying 2E and probably 3E (I only played it one year) had bloat. The "Guides" to everything in 2E were ridiculous with bloat alone!


And most of the content people have been screaming for they haven't given us... which makes the material they do put out even more disappointing IMO.


I don't think they'll make the mistakes with feats again (no feat chains), but the subclasses are already over half-way to your goal. That is, it is getting bloated.
I think you are missing my point... this isn't bloat. At all. There isn't much content to 5e, even in comparison to 1e or even Basic. With only 2 rules updates and those being slim volumes and 3 monster books, also slim, there isn't a lot of rules to get bloaty with. Getting there on Rules Bloat would be when people come in with 4-6 books for a single character because of a single thing out of each book. The closest thing to rules bloat is the constant revision and changes resulting in the necessity to reprint material but again, is it a necessity or is it merely a preview for the revised edition? It's artificial and unnecessary and I am not saying that in the grognard sense of "I like it that way" and "all drow are evil" but in the sense of they roll out these changes and then a couple months later roll them back in like Alignment being removed and then returned. Wait, I am sorry, put on time out. Then they talk about things that sound cool like the new approach to Drow and... where are the in game materials for that? Shouldn't all these half steps be tested in house or in UA and then implemented with the revision instead of implemented haphazardly? It implies a game with... 5 slim supplements is getting "bloaty". looks at Pathfinder2e, Starfinder, Warhammer, Vampire, EVERY OTHER RPG Bloaty. The changes are even small, minor tweaks that can easily be ignored because for the core game they are optional, not core. The core game being... the big 3 books with Tasha's & Xanathar's as rules expansions. Even Mordy and Volo's aren't "core", they're monster books. So... minor rules tweaks, the equivalent of four books since the two expansions are slim... you got?
 


Yup. I think there is a fear of corruption/contagion - add storygame elements to an OSR game, now you have a storygame. And Classic purists often see OSR as a corrupting influence too. Storygamers are often hostile to Trad play too, of course, but without the Purity/Corruption thing.

Most OC gamers are just desperate to play, so I don't often see them being dismissive of other styles! :D
There's definitely a split within the OSR now between people who just want to play retroclones or 1e and the "NSR" (New School Revolution) that is more about experimenting with creating new games and weird settings. Part of the difference is aesthetic, though a lot of it is "political" in a broad sense. Anyway, that latter group is much more open to learning from "storygames"
 



Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
You seem to be missing the point that myself (and I expect others) are making. We aren't saying 5E is bloated now, but it is getting a little on the heavy side, leaning nicely into bloat.
The vast majority of it is settings, monsters and adventures, though. There's not much new in the way of magic items and feats.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
The vast majority of it is settings, monsters and adventures, though.
Sure, and that was true in prior editions as well. 🤷‍♂️

But if you want new material, and the stuff WotC provides is not of interest or use to you, it just feel like crap (e.g. bloat).

There's not much new in the way of magic items and feats.
Personally, I am not keen on the idea of 100 feats, but more would be nice, especially well-designed ones that didn't just mimic other features (looking at you Tasha's). Those type of feats are pretty useful IMO.

Also, I would like more rules and less rulings, but I know that is bucking the trend so I'll just deal.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Sure, and that was true in prior editions as well. 🤷‍♂️
Bloat generally refers to the PC crunch, not the settings, adventures and monster books. It was the magic items, spells, classes/subclasses and feats.
But if you want new material, and the stuff WotC provides is not of interest or use to you, it just feel like crap (e.g. bloat).
I don't equate those two. Settings(other than FR and Dark Sun) and campaign adventures are useless to me, but they don't make the game feel bloated at all.
Personally, I am not keen on the idea of 100 feats, but more would be nice, especially well-designed ones that didn't just mimic other features (looking at you Tasha's). Those type of feats are pretty useful IMO.
I don't even mind ones that mimic other features. I like the idea that feats are another way to "multiclass" a bit.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
Bloat generally refers to the PC crunch, not the settings, adventures and monster books. It was the magic items, spells, classes/subclasses and feats.

I don't equate those two. Settings(other than FR and Dark Sun) and campaign adventures are useless to me, but they don't make the game feel bloated at all.

I don't even mind ones that mimic other features. I like the idea that feats are another way to "multiclass" a bit.
To each, their own. 🤷‍♂️
 

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