To multi-class or not

[Thanee]

As for non-spellcaster multiclassing, the system works very well here, since many of the classes do not have high level class abilities that are in any way important or even close to the high level spellcasting ability of the spellcasters (the one thing that makes multiclassing bad for them).

For example, a Bar1/Rgr1/Ftr18 is quite obviously more powerful than a Ftr20.
You swap one feat for better skills, better saves (+3 Fort +2 Ref), fast movement, rage, track, favored enemy. The 2 additional fighter levels are not even close to what the multiclassing options offer.

That's obviously an effect of the aforementioned frontloadedness of the D&D classes and at this point pretty much an abuse of the system already, even though, just a slight one.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Darklone]

The only decent ways to build multiclass spellcasters is to either pick up a prestige class dedicated to this purpose (Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight come to mind), or have only very few levels in the non-spellcasting class.

Bye
Thanee

Or the other way round. 3 levels of wizard or cleric (Trickery domain anyone?) for a main rogue can go a long way... and it's not such a huge loss for him.

Same for a fighter. 3 levels of cleric help a lot.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Or the other way round. 3 levels of wizard or cleric (Trickery domain anyone?) for a main rogue can go a long way... and it's not such a huge loss for him.

Same for a fighter. 3 levels of cleric help a lot.

That's hit it on the head!

IMXP, multiclass casters can be pretty effective, but need to be looked at carefully. In terms of direct spell effects they're may not be so good, but the fringe benefits can be impressive. The utility spells are a good starting point... but what about items?

For example, a single level in a class gives you flawless use of spell completion items - something that would take a score of +19 in UMD - which won't be easy to reach for many characters... With a good base casting stat, staves can be pretty worthwhile as well. It's expensive but can be really impressive.

Certain spells work much better in the hands of a base class X: Caster 1: An 8th level wand of scorching ray is a great 'on the move attack' for an Archer (Fighter X: Wizard 1) - his ranged feats will make it a lot more effective than when used by a wizard?


SR is a problem - One 'fix' we considered was to mess with multiclass casters - we were considering advancing caster level (NOT spell progression) for levels in other classes. Do it along the same lines as Base attack bonus. A 'Base Spell Level', if you will... Would particulalry help Cleric:Wizard type combinations somewhat more effective.

 

[Tessarael]

Sorcerer 6/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight is a reasonably strong build. At 20th level, I'd go for Sorcerer 9/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 10 to maximize spell ability, or Sorcerer 6/Fighter 4/Eldritch Knight 10 to maximize melee ability.

If your DM allows you to be a munchkin, you did for 1 level into Spellsword to get 15% reduction in Arcane Spell Failure (see Complete Warrior). Then Sorcerer 8/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 10 (starting from Sorcerer 5/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight ...) is a very good build.

Just my thoughts ...

 

[Thanee]

Or the other way round. 3 levels of wizard or cleric (Trickery domain anyone?) for a main rogue can go a long way... and it's not such a huge loss for him.

Same for a fighter. 3 levels of cleric help a lot.

True, true. I was mainly speaking from the spellcaster perspective.
Adding very small amounts of spellcasting ability can be a nice benefit, too.

Especially when it comes to using wands, as has been said already.

Our barbarian did this (barbarian/sorcerer/dragon disciple with one level of sorcerer). One of the spells he learned was identify, so our wizard doesn't have to bother preparing that (the 3.5 version works very well at caster level 1). Enlarge person is also quite nifty, even if it only has a 1 minute duration, as is expeditious retreat (altho it's hardly being used that way).

I always tell him to pick up magic missile (which is obviously kinda useless with only one missile and 4 spells per day) and teaze him when the others have to play Luke Skywalker, trying to hit the will-o'-wisps, while my sorceress has to do all the work for them.

So basically, the only thing that really isn't all that great is going 50/50 in a spellcaster and a non-spellcaster class, otherwise multiclassing works fine.

Trying to get results similar to a 50/50 approach is a bit difficult and usually involves the use of PrC.

Bye
Thanee

 

[two]

cake and eat it

When multi-classing an arcane casting class, or considering it, don't forget to ponder the only core arcane fighter/wizard... the bard.

Yeah, Cleric BAB, worse spells than the wizard, but it's a very easy build (Fighter5/Sorcerer5 vs. Bard10?) and with inspire courage ramping up nicely the bard has a lot going for it.

Plus, can wear armor..light armor... no spell failure...this is pretty nice.

Actually, a Bard10 would/should easily wax a Sorcerer5/Fighter5. Good defensive spells (dimension door, mirror image, alter self), good will-save disablers (enchantments), good utility spells (dispel magic), good saves (reflex, will). I'm not sure how the Sorcerer5/Fighter5 would win barring a lucky crit or something. The Bard can just escape, buff with spells, and come back for more (heal too, if required).

The Bard has the same BAB, can cast higher-level spells, and should have better defenses all around than the sorc5/fighter5. Something to consider. Plus, giving all your pals +2/+2 or +3/+3 on to-hit and damage really increases a party's overall damage output per round -- you might be surprised by how much.

 

[Darklone]

True Strike plus Power Attack with a twohanded weapon will probably ice the bard

Sure, the EK build can do it a lot better with Quickened True Strikes. Or worse spells.

 

[ARandomGod]

To Multi or Not:

Really, when asking yourself this question, whether or not to multiclass, you must realize what you're really asking, which is:
"Am I a spell caster?"
If your answer is yes, then you most certainly should not multiclass.
Now, if you can cast a few spells, but that's flavor, incedental, or just not really a main point, then the answer is "probably"
If your answer is a resonding "No", then definitely, 100% you should multiclass. There's no reason not to and SO MANY reasons to.

OK I could be exaggerating with that last point. A barb may want to get better rages... But even he should consider a little multiclassing. It's just so GOOD>

As meantioned above, there are many occasions wherein throwing in a little spellcasting flavor can be a really good thing for a non-spellcaster. OR, you can avoid that altogether, and get lots of bennies without loosing any (or much, if you want to throw in up to four levels of monk) BAB.

Now, if you're a spellcaster, really the only viable multiclassing you can get is throug PrC's, and even then you have to really look, watch out that you're not giving up too many caster levels. That next level of spells is almost always better than whatever else you're getting. Remeber, with a spell caster it's all about magical POWER. And you can only get that power through intense focus on your prime class. Or, perhaps... maybe a PrC that doesn't take too much focus away.

So, remember
"Should I multiclass?"
"Is the same as asking am I a non-spellcaster?"
Yes for one is yes for the other.

(Also, of course, if you DO multiclass, be careful it's not in order to become a spellcaster. Unless, of course, you have very few levels yet, and plan on using those to enter a spellcasting PrC. Otherwise you've turned your answer around.)

 

[Plane Sailing]

Say a Sor5/Ftr5 is fighting a 10th level Fighter. The multiclass fighter would'nt be a match for the single class fighter in melee, and the multi's spells would have a difficult time overcoming the single class' higher saving throws

The Sor5/Ftr5 would be using spells to buff himself rather than spells against the fighter. Everything depends on who gets the drop on who, but given prep time to use his class features (say they are fighting side by side and are just about to ambush an enemy) the multiclass guy can enter combat with Enlarge, Bulls Str, Blur, Shield, protection from evil... giving him an extra 6 Str to swing his 2H sword (which does 3d6 damage and has 10ft reach), gives him +6 to his AC and a 20% miss chance on all attacks aimed at him. I'm assuming here that he is sucking up the spell failure chance, although there are ways around that (like brewing potions for himself).

I imagine in a set up like that the 10th level fighter might be complaining about the multiclasser being too effective Naturally, he can't do it every time, but if he gets prep time and he is focussed on buffing magic he can shine over the fighter over a short period.

If you don't believe me, go and read the Temple of Elemental Evil and early "liberators of Tenh" storyhours by (contact). heck, go and read those anyway!

Cheers

 

[Kormydigar]

My group is starting a new campaign on Sunday.
I've been thinking about multi-classing. The problem is that I'm not convinced a multi-class character can really hold his own.

Say a Sor5/Ftr5 is fighting a 10th level Fighter. The multiclass fighter would'nt be a match for the single class fighter in melee, and the multi's spells would have a difficult time overcoming the single class' higher saving throws.

What do you think?

The way 3rd Ed. does multiclassing does not lend itself well to mixing spellcasting classes with fighter types as far as holding ones own with an equivalent level single classed character. For this reason I do not like to take more than 1 level of a non- spellcasting class if I am playing a caster. A 6th level caster that does not have access to 3rd level spells is at a real disadvantage, but a 3rd/3rd fighter/ rogue is a powerful combo. I am currently playing an ex monk 1/ cleric6. I will still have access to 4th level cleric spells when I am 8th level so the multiclass does not overly restrict my spellcasting options. I tend not to like spellcasting prestige classes which do not give a caster level for each prestige char level for the same reasons. Not that these types of classes are not viable, or playable in any way, I just think that they would not be right for me.