ToB, Warblade, & Feat Questions

[LiL KiNG]

Going through the ToB a lot recently I'm finding a lot junk - the Warblade in particular seems to get the short end and I can't figure out why. So, here we go;

1) Why is the Bloodstorm Blade PrC, arguably a Warblade focused PrC with it's Iron Heart requirements, the only PrC in the book that doesn't advance maneuvers or stances known? Also, was it necessary to make weapon aptitude redundant? Sure if you're not a Warblade taking the PrC somehow then that is a new feature, but for Warblades who already have that ability anyway they should have given some alternative - many classes and PrCs already do that, along the lines of having Evasion = gaining Imp. Evasion instead.

2) Why is the Warblade the only class that doesn't get a feat to increase maneuvers readied or granted?
I realize that at level 1 a Warblade can ready every maneuver known - so make the feat require two Warblade levels as a prereq then. It'd still be extremely useful to ready an additional maneuver as a Warblade anytime after level 1. I also realize that Warblades can recover their expended maneuvers easily, but so can Crusaders and they get an extra granted maneuver feat.

3) Is there any feat that works like Snap Kick for regular melee attacks? I know there are abilities like Whirling Frenzy, but those are limited and require taking a class level w/ACFs. Basically I'm looking for a way to strike twice (with all attacks taking a -2 penalty) while using a 1hd weapon. I'm not trying to go down the TWF tree here.
Snap Kick is awesome, but only if you're a Monk or take the feats Improved Unarmed Strike(prereq for Snap Kick anyway) and Superior Unarmed Strike. Otherwise wasting two feats for 1d3 damage isn't very worthwhile... And wasting 3 feats for the increased damage w/SUS is likewise not very rewarding.
I'm not trying to level dip Barbarian or Monk because of multiclass XP penalties and a desire to take Warblade to 20 without going epic... not that our parties have ever made it to 20 yet, but still my desire. I plan all my builds to 20 for feats, skills, abilities etc. to see where I can gain synergies or avoid redundancies.

Looking for errata and answers I found another problem that I hadn't noticed, and that is the Warblade gaining a second stance at level 4 - where you are limited to another 1st level stance. Many people seem to feel that gaining the new stance should be delayed to level 5 where you can pick up a 3rd level stance (as there are no second level stances). I'm going to ask my DM for this for sure.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

1) I don't know, and it's a shame. I love the PrC, but in a game that's going to high levels, the Lightning Throw maneuver (my favorite in the book) > that entire class. IMO, it should advance IL and give a stunted growth of maneuvers learned so you can still pick up Lightning Throw and the like.
At least, that PrC is focused on throwing, which few WBs are, so it's safe to ignore it completely. And it's not like every discipline even GOT a prestige class linked to it. Only a few do, some PrCs cover multiple ones together, like Shadow Sun Ninja.

2) I don't know. I'd allow extra readied maneuver past 1st level (or at 1 if you also took martial study). But RAW, only swordsages can. You missed the most damning "wtf?!" in feats, though. Check out Scribe Martial Script. Apparently Iron Heart scripts don't exist. Seriously, WTF?!!!!

3) Snap Kick exists because unarmed fighting is underpowered. That said, at later levels when you can get it, the Slashing Flurry feat from PHB is excellent w/ strike maneuvers. First is at -5 and 2nd is at -10 (but it's full BAB, so eh) and the second hit is just a normal melee attack. Still, killer awesome, you should look into it.

It's a major problem. I'm one of those who says to allow it delayed till level 5. As it stands, most of my warblades (including the level 5 one I currently am playing) purposely dip out of WB for 2 levels before WB 4 specifically because of this reason. It sucks, definitely. On the plus side, that's the only discrepency for WB. Check out the poor Crusader's stance progression, they're all kinds of effed up.


EDIT: To be fair, you did not state one of the greatest benefits WB has over the other adepts: he gets access to BOTH of the hands-down best maneuvers in the book, IH Surge and WR Tactics. IMO, that is a huge benefit.

 

[Wyvernhand]

I'd chaulk up the answer to most of those questions with balance, or at least percieved balance.

BSB doesn't advance IL or maneuvers because the abilities are so "good", that adding maneuvers on top of those abilities would be too "good". The closest thing to Snap Kick with a weapon is Slashing Fury which has tons of prereqs and isn't quite as good, because an extra hit with a weapon is considered stronger than an UAS. There is no Extra Readied Maneuver because the difference between their recovery mechanic and that of a Swordsage.

If you and your DM don't believe that the devs idea of balance aligns with yours, then change the rules. House rule it, or homebrew it. Otherwise, that's where they drew the line in the sand.

 

[LiL KiNG]

You missed the most damning "wtf?!" in feats, though. Check out Scribe Martial Script. Apparently Iron Heart scripts don't exist. Seriously, WTF?!!!!

You're right, I did overlook that. That is outright BS. Why do Crusaders and Swordsages get access to this feat but Warblades do not?

Snap Kick exists because unarmed fighting is underpowered. That said, at later levels when you can get it, the Slashing Flurry feat from PHB is excellent w/ strike maneuvers. First is at -5 and 2nd is at -10 (but it's full BAB, so eh) and the second hit is just a normal melee attack. Still, killer awesome, you should look into it.

Unless you're a Monk, I agree unarmed fighting is useless. My current Monk character though is destroying people while unarmed/unarmored (he does have the Feral template though to be honest - and will be taking the Beast Strike feat to combine claw/unarmed damage). Slashing Flurry does look awesome. Heavy, heavy feat requirements for it though - nearly necessitates multiclassing Fighter to get it.

It's a major problem. I'm one of those who says to allow it delayed till level 5. As it stands, most of my warblades (including the level 5 one I currently am playing) purposely dip out of WB for 2 levels before WB 4 specifically because of this reason. It sucks, definitely. On the plus side, that's the only discrepency for WB. Check out the poor Crusader's stance progression, they're all kinds of effed up.

Problem with dipping out of any levels of Warblade is losing the level 20 ability of having two stances running concurrently. While that ability is powerful, I don't like that it's a level 20 ability. Seems like it'd be great at 17-18 so you could get a couple levels of use out of it.
You're right again, the Crusader's stance progression is jacked too.

EDIT: To be fair, you did not state one of the greatest benefits WB has over the other adepts: he gets access to BOTH of the hands-down best maneuvers in the book, IH Surge and WR Tactics. IMO, that is a huge benefit.

I haven't actually run a ToB character yet, this is all prep work for it so I am still learning things as I read through it - I have yet to read every maneuver or stances full descriptive text. Iron Heart Surge is phenomenal. The WR Tactics is pretty damn good too, for an ally anyway.

Another problem with the Warblade is you only learn 13 maneuvers (without taking Martial Study) so if you want two level 9 strikes you need to focus 8 of your maneuvers learned on two disciplines, plus plan out your retraining maneuvers accordingly.
Right now I'm looking at Diamond Mind and Iron Heart at a minimum of 4 maneuvers each so I can get their 9th level strikes. Which leaves 3 open for WR (Tactics would take 2 maneuver slots up) or another discipline. I like a lot out of Stone Dragon but you get into that prereq stuff of having to know X amount of maneuvers from that discipline to get some of the better stuff, plus IL restrictions, so planning around that is tricky. But I will definitely be taking Martial Study after level 13 to pick up Shadow Blink.

 

[LiL KiNG]

I'd chaulk up the answer to most of those questions with balance, or at least percieved balance.

BSB doesn't advance IL or maneuvers because the abilities are so "good", that adding maneuvers on top of those abilities would be too "good". The closest thing to Snap Kick with a weapon is Slashing Fury which has tons of prereqs and isn't quite as good, because an extra hit with a weapon is considered stronger than an UAS. There is no Extra Readied Maneuver because the difference between their recovery mechanic and that of a Swordsage.

If you and your DM don't believe that the devs idea of balance aligns with yours, then change the rules. House rule it, or homebrew it. Otherwise, that's where they drew the line in the sand.

BSB's focus on throwing things with a 10' range increment limits heavily though, to hit someone at 40' your looking at +6 on the to-hit roll, that's pretty self-balancing.

Recovery mechanic between Swordsage and Warblade is significant, but the Crusader is on par with Warblade in that they automatically start their maneuver cycle over once they can't be granted anymore maneuvers - at least that is the way I understood it. Balance wise all of the Swordsage's class abilities top the Warblade's by far, only his 3/4 BAB progression is 'worse'. Plus he has twice as many maneuvers known and readied.

A 1 level dip into Barbarian for Whirling Frenzy and Pounce is cheesy, but allowable - add the extend and extra rage feats and you now have an extra attack for about 3 minutes a day (if playing FR like we are, with the tireless regional feat there is no penalty for 'rage' ending). Problem here is not being able to make the Concentration checks Diamond Mind maneuvers use, and losing the level 20 Warblade ability.

We don't run too many house rules, preferring something in writing if it's there. Meaning I look at all the alternate class and race features I can, or feats from any book or Dragon magazine. Looks like ToB wasn't expanded upon at all though without going into homebrew stuff, and the errata on the WotC site is not very helpful either.

 

[nogray]

Going through the ToB a lot recently I'm finding a lot junk - the Warblade in particular seems to get the short end and I can't figure out why. So, here we go;

1) Why is the Bloodstorm Blade PrC, arguably a Warblade focused PrC with it's Iron Heart requirements, the only PrC in the book that doesn't advance maneuvers or stances known? Also, was it necessary to make weapon aptitude redundant? Sure if you're not a Warblade taking the PrC somehow then that is a new feature, but for Warblades who already have that ability anyway they should have given some alternative - many classes and PrCs already do that, along the lines of having Evasion = gaining Imp. Evasion instead.

2) Why is the Warblade the only class that doesn't get a feat to increase maneuvers readied or granted?
I realize that at level 1 a Warblade can ready every maneuver known - so make the feat require two Warblade levels as a prereq then. It'd still be extremely useful to ready an additional maneuver as a Warblade anytime after level 1. I also realize that Warblades can recover their expended maneuvers easily, but so can Crusaders and they get an extra granted maneuver feat.

3) Is there any feat that works like Snap Kick for regular melee attacks? I know there are abilities like Whirling Frenzy, but those are limited and require taking a class level w/ACFs. Basically I'm looking for a way to strike twice (with all attacks taking a -2 penalty) while using a 1hd weapon. I'm not trying to go down the TWF tree here.
Snap Kick is awesome, but only if you're a Monk or take the feats Improved Unarmed Strike(prereq for Snap Kick anyway) and Superior Unarmed Strike. Otherwise wasting two feats for 1d3 damage isn't very worthwhile... And wasting 3 feats for the increased damage w/SUS is likewise not very rewarding.
I'm not trying to level dip Barbarian or Monk because of multiclass XP penalties and a desire to take Warblade to 20 without going epic... not that our parties have ever made it to 20 yet, but still my desire. I plan all my builds to 20 for feats, skills, abilities etc. to see where I can gain synergies or avoid redundancies.

Looking for errata and answers I found another problem that I hadn't noticed, and that is the Warblade gaining a second stance at level 4 - where you are limited to another 1st level stance. Many people seem to feel that gaining the new stance should be delayed to level 5 where you can pick up a 3rd level stance (as there are no second level stances). I'm going to ask my DM for this for sure.

My play experience with a warblade into 18th level leads me to disagree with the assessment that they got the short end. He's pretty awesome in just about every way. As to the questions, let's see.

1. While I don't disagree that the Bloodstorm Blade is shorted in not advancing maneuvers, that really says more negative about that prestige class, not the warblade parent class. The inclusion of the aptitude feature in the bloodstorm blade's set is important, though. It matters less for the second part (retraining your feats to work with any weapon) and more for the first part (allowing you to continue selecting fighter-only feats).

Looking at the feat weapon specialization, it requires 4th level fighter. A warblade 5/bloodstorm blade 1 also qualifies, though. Without the weapon aptitude feature specifically included in the bloodstorm blade, this would not be the case, as that character would only count as a third level fighter from his warblade levels. Similar cases for other feats with higher level requirements can be made, of course.

2. In my opinion, the extra readied maneuver swordsage feat and the extra granted maneuver crusader feat do entirely different things. The crusader feat isn't really an extra maneuver sort of feat. It allows them to cycle through their readied maneuvers more quickly (in three rounds instead of four), but they have the same number readied as without the feat. It essentially allows more flexibility of choice, not an extra maneuver.

The swordsage's feat is really an extra maneuver, but they seem to need it to make up for their terrible recharge mechanic. My warblade rocks pretty hard, dishing damage with maneuvers for a couple rounds then still attacking (just as strongly as a fighter would) on the round that I recharge. This is only slightly less maneuver usage than the crusader in the party, who always has a maneuver to use. Even without the extra granted maneuver feat, though, she would still have a maneuver to use every single round.

3. The others have already mentioned slashing flurry. Personally, I didn't take it, though I was tempted. I'm not aware of much else that allows for the extra attack, though.

As to the rest, I'm with you on the lack of enjoyment with that 4th level stance, but I just went with it. Stances are your friends with respect to qualifying for higher level maneuvers, so you might look at it that way -- an investment in qualifying for those higher level maneuvers. The one houserule that my DM did give me was expanding the list of bonus feats that warblades get to include martial study and martial stance. That was an awesomely generous move on his part.

 

[kitcik]

These are all good points.

Re #3, try the Dancing and Raging Mongoose maneuvers.

 

[LiL KiNG]

It matters less for the second part (retraining your feats to work with any weapon) and more for the first part (allowing you to continue selecting fighter-only feats).

Looking at the feat weapon specialization, it requires 4th level fighter. A warblade 5/bloodstorm blade 1 also qualifies, though.

That is a good point, I wasn't looking at it that way - I still feel like they're robbed by not gaining any new maneuvers or stances over 10 levels though.

2. I know the recovery methods played into this, or at least that is my guess. I know the Warblade recovers his maneuvers easily, it was more a versatility thing of having another readied maneuver meaning you could be more prepared for different situations. Short of using yet another precious feat slot, you don't have time in combat to change out your maneuvers. I suppose the Crusader really can't plan around that with the whole granted maneuver thing.

The one houserule that my DM did give me was expanding the list of bonus feats that warblades get to include martial study and martial stance. That was an awesomely generous move on his part.

Yep, that is nice right there, hopefully I can swing the same thing here.

 

[LiL KiNG]

These are all good points.

Re #3, try the Dancing and Raging Mongoose maneuvers.

See, I was so set on the Diamond Mind/Iron Heart disciplines I didn't read far enough into Tiger Claw. Dancing and Raging Mongoose are awesome, coupled with the recovery method of a Warblade makes these very strong maneuvers and eliminates the need of a Barbarian level dip.
I also see Tiger Claw has Pouncing Charge, covering the pounce benefit gained again by that Barb level dip.

This raises a new question, but I'm sure its the same as with feats; Raging Mongoose for example requires you to know 3 Tiger Claw maneuvers as a prereq, after learning Raging Mongoose, if you retrain one of your lower level Tiger Claw maneuvers to a different discipline, would you lose the ability to use Raging Mongoose? - I'll start looking through the book for answer too, just typed it as I thought about is all.

Do stances count when determining # of maneuvers known for learning a new ability? Guessing not, but another thought I just had.

Thanks for all the replies guys, helping me learn some things and see some others in a new way, much appreciated!

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I agree w/ the poster who said Warblades rock. All in all, Crusader is probably the most powerful of the 3 classes, but WB is close and way more fun (for me). All of these "shaftings" are pretty minor.

See, I was so set on the Diamond Mind/Iron Heart disciplines I didn't read far enough into Tiger Claw. Dancing and Raging Mongoose are awesome, coupled with the recovery method of a Warblade makes these very strong maneuvers and eliminates the need of a Barbarian level dip.
I also see Tiger Claw has Pouncing Charge, covering the pounce benefit gained again by that Barb level dip.

This raises a new question, but I'm sure its the same as with feats; Raging Mongoose for example requires you to know 3 Tiger Claw maneuvers as a prereq, after learning Raging Mongoose, if you retrain one of your lower level Tiger Claw maneuvers to a different discipline, would you lose the ability to use Raging Mongoose? - I'll start looking through the book for answer too, just typed it as I thought about is all.

Do stances count when determining # of maneuvers known for learning a new ability? Guessing not, but another thought I just had.

Thanks for all the replies guys, helping me learn some things and see some others in a new way, much appreciated!

The cust. serv. Q&A for Tome of Battle stated that meeting pre-reqs only matters when acquiring a maneuver; afterwards you can undercut your "base" of maneuvers used to qualify if you wish by swapping them out with no ill effect. I'm not a fan of that ruling, but WB certainly benefits from the help with the paltry amount of maneuvers known vs. # of disciplines.

Yes, stances count as maneuvers for the "must know X # of maneuvers" requirements. Almost all my warblades take Leading the Charge stance to qualify for WR Tactics and/or Battle Leader's Charge w/o having to learn any of those other yucky 1st and 2nd level WR maneuvers (seriously, they're pretty bad). *thumbs up*


As for the Barb dip; I commonly utilize it for pounce since again, the stance issue makes dipping out appealing anyway. It's no cheesier than any other method of dipping Barb for pounce, and if you feel dirty about it, just remind yourself the druid can wildshape and pounce all day long AND still cast 9th level spells. I find it makes me feel far less badly about it. Don't even waste feats on extra/extend rage. Buy a wand of Blood Frenzy (SpC; 2nd level druid spell) and give it to the party Druid / dude who can use magic devices.

EDIT: Also notice the stone dragon 9th level maneuver, Mountain Tombstone Strike. Requires NO maneuvers known in order to learn. So any Warblade, given that, should be easily able to learn at least 3 9th level maneuvers if he spreads his maneuvers known out enough, probably 4, even. And without needing to take Martial Study. 13 maneuvers + 4 stances is 17 total. -1 to spend on MTS, I'm quite sure between 16 other maneuvers and stances you could squeeze in 9th level maneuvers of 3 other disciplines and their pre-reqs if you wished to.