Tolkien v. Howard v. Lovecraft

[InzeladunMaster]

Yes, which is why I am leary of calling a moral or spiritual position a "truth."

Well, that is why I put the word in quotes! To show it isn't really accurate. Please consider any reference above to "truths" to be theories. I will edit my posts to reflect this. Sorry to have created a stumbling block for you.

 

[thormagni]

Well, that is why I put the word in quotes! To show it isn't really accurate. Please consider any reference above to "truths" to be theories. I will edit my posts to reflect this. Sorry to have created a stumbling block for you.

Aha. Well that makes sense. Sorry to drag the discussion into semantics.

The thought occurs to me that in a standard RPG fantasy world, only an idiot or a lunatic would be an atheist. There wouldn't be any dispute about faith, as the gods walk the Earth and give their power to mortals all the time.

 

[thormagni]

I guess my whole issue with the conversation is this: I don't believe there is a larger, knowable truth to our existence. Or rather, there may be a greater truth, a deeper meaning, but we are too miniscule in body, mind and spirit to ever actually know what that is, if it even exists. Conversely, I believe many people desparately need there to be such a thing. For many, the alternative that life has no greater meaning, that it is composed of random events and ruled by caprice, is too overwhelming an idea to bear.

Which makes people prone to adopting whatever damn-fool religion comes down the pike, weaving an intricate tale that seems to have all the answers.

 

[InzeladunMaster]

The thought occurs to me that in a standard RPG fantasy world, only an idiot or a lunatic would be an atheist. There wouldn't be any dispute about faith, as the gods walk the Earth and give their power to mortals all the time.

Yes, which is what I hate about standard RPG fantasy worlds. There is no religion. How can there be? That is one of the things I like about the Conan RPG. I haven't liked clerics for a long, long time. There are no spiritual theories - spells come direct from the gods, so there is direct evidence (my favourite cleric in Inzeladun is Alexander (played by Ender the Elder) because he was a psionicist that just believed his powers came from the gods). Of course there is no debate about the gods, but fantasy games have to come up with hackneyed theories on why the gods, if obviously real, do not interfere.

Schlock fantasy has the same issues when the gods become real. The whole concept is retarded and ultimately makes for a much less interesting world. Even other religions technically have no leg to stand on if they want to start a religious war - it is not like they can prove the other god is "false" and theirs is "true." Both parties have clerics to make that an obvious non-debate. If in doubt, a rival cleric can take his counterpart on a journey to meet his god, or at least his Outer Planar realm.

When I get around to redesigning and relaunching Inzeladun, the "Reality of the Gods" is the first thing to go. Most religions will have political purposes (the dual purposes you described), but one will have the noble purpose Grimhelm described above.

The greatest and best religion Inzeladun ever had was The Silver Tree when it was originated by Grimhelm (in all senses of the word) - no one had ever heard of him, he had a philosophy and no one knew if he was real or not. It is arguably the only real religion Inzeladun ever had.

 

[InzeladunMaster]

I guess my whole issue with the conversation is this: I don't believe there is a larger, knowable truth to our existence. Or rather, there may be a greater truth, a deeper meaning, but we are too miniscule in body, mind and spirit to ever actually know what that is, if it even exists. Conversely, I believe many people desparately need there to be such a thing. For many, the alternative that life has no greater meaning, that it is composed of random events and ruled by caprice, is too overwhelming an idea to bear.

Which makes people prone to adopting whatever damn-fool religion comes down the pike, weaving an intricate tale that seems to have all the answers.

Ah, now we are back to the original topic... that sounds very Lovecraftian.

 

[thormagni]

Schlock fantasy has the same issues when the gods become real. The whole concept is retarded and ultimately makes for a much less interesting world. Even other religions technically have no leg to stand on if they want to start a religious war - it is not like they can prove the other god is "false" and theirs is "true." Both parties have clerics to make that an obvious non-debate. If in doubt, a rival cleric can take his counterpart on a journey to meet his god, or at least his Outer Planar realm.

Actually, I can see a few interesting ways that religion can be played in RPGs without unbalancing the entire universe.

First, you can have the scenario where gods need followers to gain power. Maybe there is an invisible, but potent energy that flows from the pure faith of prayers. A powerful extra-dimensional being desires power to advance its agenda, so it begins actively seeking followers in the material realm (let's call this the Monsters Inc., scenario.) A cleric who advances the god's agenda and brings in new followers will receive rewards in the form of spell power. Maybe it takes the god one point of mana to give a first level spell to a cleric, but he gets one point from each believers' prayers, or some such. And an evil god would also want to generate new followers, so he can have more energy to advance his agenda.

Secondly, maybe gods don't exist until someone believes in them (this is the theory behind the game Black and White.) The more people believe, the more real the god becomes. If enough people believe, then the god can make the transition from the spiritual plane to the material plane. For example, a great hero dies and many people believe in him, telling tales of his exploits. Their belief gives him reality as a god in the spiritual realm.

Thirdly, maybe the gods are extra-diimensional beings who are actually in thrall to their "followers" here on the material world. Much as sorcerors or wizards draw on extra-dimensional energy, clerics would draw on specific named entities for their spells, in essence tying the gods down like the Lilliputians tied down Gulliver.

Fourth, and this may be my favorite, maybe the gods only exist as forces of nature and clerics tap into that force and ascribe human motives to a power that is beyond our ability to comprehend.

Why don't the gods walk the earth? Well it could be for a variety of reasons. Maybe the greater gods are too powerful to manifest on the material plane without disrupting the very fabric of reality. Perhaps their existence would be too much for the minds of mere mortals to fathom and their appearance would drive their followers stark, raving mad, or shut down their minds entirely. Perhaps they don't walk the earth because we are too miniscule to deal with or the affairs of our little material ball of mud are just too minor to draw a god's full attention from the many planes of existence they exist on in the spiritual realm. How exactly would a force representing strength, or fire, or wisdom actually walk on the earth? Maybe the gods are so busy they don't have time to stop by earth, what with all the prayer granting and dispensing of favors and powers (the Bruce Almighty theory.)

 

[InzeladunMaster]

It just seems easier to deny them a real existance without having to keep track of all that stuff.

Also, how would that explain evil gods? Who would actually worship one to actually make it "real"? The evil gods are in a pantheon as a symbol. (I plan to get rid of alignments, too). All of that seems hokey to me, right now. I would just rather have the religions and the faith, but no provable gods.

 

[Grimhelm]

An attempt to answer a few questions...

Thormagni, I share your skepticism when it comes to "truth", though I really do believe in a truth that must be the starting point of any philosophy or religion. I really don't wish to sound preachy here. After all, we all have ideas, and in every sense, our ideas are all valid. But what I refer to is the sense we all have in our hearts that first, we are part of something grande and wonderful. Second, all things are united. I do not speak of truth in a moral sense, for all morality is subjective. I do not speak of spirituality in this way either, though I would hypothesize that all spiritual investigation leads to the same ultimate answer.

This answer isn't one that can be quantified of qualified, so there is no sense in speaking about it. Every sage that has tried, from Jesus down to Buddha has found an understanding audience in only one place: those who have discovered it for themselves already, thereby making any of the sage's "teachings" null and void, for no one who has not been "enlightened" will possibly understand what they had to say in the first place!!!

Now. God and religion in role playing. In Arenaia, there are religions, yet I have kept it completely a mystery as to what they really believe, and what their motivations really are. I think, essentially that this is the only way to present religion in RPGs. I do not believe cleric characters should have any function whatsoever. I do not believe anyone associated with religion should have powers assigned to them by god. It is scenery, if you ask me, and nothing more. After all, religion is a culturally specific phenomenon, just as wooden shoes and lederhosen are.

As for the Silver Tree, it was an embodiment of a set of ideas. I can see it necessarily changing as the groups who play in Inzeladun change also. I never saw it as a religion that was to be set in stone.

As for Inzeladun, I have my own ideas where that world should go, but I will keep that to myself until such time as I am asked what my opinions really are on the subject.

I will say this, however, since we are on the subject; there has never been any more single harmful element to enter Inzeladun, than the element of pre-existing pantheons coinciding with the world's religions. These should be scrapped entirely. In fact, if the truth be known, I never really saw the Silver Tree as a religion. It was a symbol of chilvalry and honesty, and nothing more. In some respect, this is the place all religion should have in a role playing game. Hell, give them a symbol and three vague ideas associated with it and let the players fill in the damned blanks. God knows they will.

This is the only true way to role play; let the characters and players invent their own fantasy.

 

[InzeladunMaster]

I think, essentially that this is the only way to present religion in RPGs. I do not believe cleric characters should have any function whatsoever. I do not believe anyone associated with religion should have powers assigned to them by god. It is scenery, if you ask me, and nothing more. After all, religion is a culturally specific phenomenon, just as wooden shoes and lederhosen are.

Totally right on, there! Yay!

 

[thormagni]

Who would actually worship one to actually make it "real"? The evil gods are in a pantheon as a symbol. (I plan to get rid of alignments, too). All of that seems hokey to me, right now. I would just rather have the religions and the faith, but no provable gods.

Those who crave power. Those who believe in doing evil. Those who don't believe in doing good behaviour to earn their gods' favor and would rather be rewarded for doing evil. Those who vote for... nah, not gonna say it.

Maybe good gods live off of hope and positive emotions, while dark gods live off of fear and negative emotions.

I just don't see that in a world where people can achieve super-human abilities and throw magic spells or psionic blasts, that there can't be equally fantastical gods. I think the question in a fantasy world is actually, if gods can't grant powers or abilities or intervene in the world, why would anyone pray to them? Why would there be religion in a place where sorcerors can cast miraculous spells? Maybe you are envisioning a world without religion?