Tolkien v. Howard v. Lovecraft

[Grimhelm]

I think, if I may speak for Vince for a moment, what he is saying ultimately relates to everything we have been talking about. We remove religious mystery when we encapsulize their powers in an archon, whether it be some angel or cleric or paladin. It is my feeling that clerics could and possibly should exist, but they should always remain as NPCs. This way the mystery of their beliefs and religion is never fully known.

 

[VirgilCaine]

I have always wanted to read the Oz books but never have. Have you?

I have...some, at least. [There's a lot of them.] But why are they pertinent to this discussion, they are just children's books (Baum says so himself)?

I'll have to re-read Frankenstein now. In addition to reading Dracula for the first time. Damn.

 

[InzeladunMaster]

Well, anything highly symbolic is pertinent. I enjoy many supposed children's books, even today: The Hobbit; The High King (the Prydain saga as a whole actually); Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone; Peter Pan and so on. Good storytelling is good storytelling, regardless of the intended audience.

I have to admit I rather enjoy reading many books to my kids, even though they are kids' books.

 

[thormagni]

We remove religious mystery when we encapsulize their powers in an archon, whether it be some angel or cleric or paladin. It is my feeling that clerics could and possibly should exist, but they should always remain as NPCs. This way the mystery of their beliefs and religion is never fully known.

I hear what you guys are saying on this issue. I just am not comprehending, I guess. It seems like a drastic step.

Holy and divine inspiration is such a rich vein for heroic character exploration that is just seems like a shame to cut it off completely. And there are few conflicts more interesting in an RPG setting than a religious conflict. And who hasn't wanted to play a character who eventually rose to the level of a demigod or legendary hero? I mean those are fertile ground for some truly epic plot lines. And as a handle for the GM to motivate or manipulate player characters, it is an effective tool, especially when you eliminate alignments.

It is not like when you roll up a first level cleric or paladin, you get an instant insight into the mind of the god you are serving. Yes, you get the spells and some vague rules about what the edicts of the god's religion might be, but at almost any level of player character you are going to be so far removed from direct dealing with the the mind of the god, that I just can't imagine it comes into play often enough to be distracting.

I mean, sure if the campaign has become the player picking up the divine cell phone every week and chatting up Thor himself for new spells and some advice, then I guess I could see it becoming a problem. Or if you are having tea and crumpets with Apollo while his sun chariot is parked outside at the local tavern, then maybe the gods are too accessible.

Have you considered applying whatever rules you are going to do for wizards and sorcerors to the divine classes as well? Maybe making divine spells as hard to cast as arcane spells? Instead of dark sacrifices and demons, you could have light offerings and archons? Hell, maybe the sorcerors and wizards are tapping into the forces of evil in the universe, while the clerics are tapping into the good forces.

 

[InzeladunMaster]

At this point I am considering everything.

However, my tendancy is to think no. One can be divinely inspired without living, real gods. People do it every day. Holy wars are waged across the globe, all with no proof their god or is real. What gets the holy warrior through the day is his Charisma and skills - can he inspire others? Not through divine aid. One of the things I like about Conan the RPG is that, at the end, a person's abilities and skills wins the day or loses it. Waiting for the gods to help dilutes the person, I think. Did he do it, or did the god? Does a knight need to be able to cast spells to be divinely inspired? No, I don't think so. The character of Grimhelm (I know, you are not familiar with that character, Thormagni) came across as divinely inspired yet he never cast a spell - he was a 1st edition AD&D cavalier. He was inspiration.

The game I am wanting for Inzeladun is not DnD. DnD requires lots of magic items, spellcasters and so forth. A DnD fighter cannot stand against a sorcerer or wizard. If you play in a party of fighters and introduce even a druid, the fighter quickly becomes useless. I hate that.

I am looking into different rule sets right now: Grim Tales, Iron Heroes and, of course, the Conan ruleset.

I want skills to rule the day in Inzeladun, not one's magic.

A DnD character defeating a CR-appropriate dragon is fine - but how awesome would it be for a Conan character do kill a dragon? Is the day won by fireballs, lightning bolts and teleport spells or by a sword cracking someone's skull?

Having clerics and divine spellcasters will not give me the game or the atmosphere I want. Even psionicists and wizards and sorcerers in the DnD senes will not do that. Hence, the game I want is not DnD.

If someone wants to run a DnD game, I will happily play in it, but DMing it, especially at high levels, is not a lot of fun. It becomes impossible to account for all the possibilities magic accords. Shoot, give Bob a bow and a Fly spell and he becomes invincible.

At some point, DnD loses its versimilitude for me.

 

[thormagni]

One can be divinely inspired without living, real gods. People do it every day. Holy wars are waged across the globe, all with no proof their god or is real.

Well, I think if you were to ask the people who believe they are inspired by a god, they would assure you that their god is very real and they could provide what they see as proof. Some of them say they have conversations with him and that he helps them out in their time of need. That is not my personal belief, but it is the belief of the people involved. I interviewed a woman the other day whose belief in god was complete. She has lived with terminal cancer for 14 years and attributes her longevity to god. To her, the very fact that she is alive is proof god exists and is active in the world. And she talks with him every morning.

Which is wildly off topic, of course.

 

[InzeladunMaster]

Allow me to illustrate:

In one Conan adventure, Charlie's low level Barbarian approached a high-level (about 12 levels higher) NPC in a bar. Charlie's intimidation check was awesome and the man was intimidated.

That makes sense because in Conan, the NPC has no magic. There are lower hit points. There is a lower massive damage threshold. Charlie's barbarian could easily hit the man and just as easily kill him, despite the level difference.

This would not have worked in DnD. The man would have 12 levels of accumulated magic items and would have known the low-level barbarian could not hit him (AC too high) and if he did, the barbarian would not kill him (hp too high and damage of sword too low). He would have no reason to fear the barbarian. He would probably have the magic to blast away the barbarian. Thus the skill has no application here.

So, back to the example: The man is intimidated, thrusts the table at the barbarian so he can escape. The man runs out of the tavern and is killed by a single blow from one of you guys who were waiting by the door.

Again, this would not have happened if we were playing DnD. He would have lived - and, being 12 levels higher, would have trounced everyone.

As soon as divine magic and living gods enter the picture, so also does the importance of skills and the importance of men on their own. A DnD cleric will destroy a Conan character. A DnD paladin can trounce an Aquilonian knight. Now, in Conan, a scholar can be a priest - but the magic system is scaled to work in Conan - and the gods are not real; Mitra is never going to show up and no one will meet Crom.

I want the game determined by what people think they can do, not based on CRs and magic.

Further, if I allowed divine magic, then why doesn't everyone be clerics and gain access to that obvious power, all without cost? The reason everyone does not become a scholar in Conan? Because with that sort of power comes a price.

If gods are real, then I have a hard time imagining a world where everyone, regardless of social standing, hasn't taken at least one level of cleric. Why wouldn't they? Shoot, by joining a temple, I can Cure Light Wounds on myself? Sign me up!

There can be no plagues, because every city has a cleric who can heal the sick. According to the statistics in DMG, there will be lots of clerics and paladins who can heal the sick. In Conan, a plague can be devestating. I was never able to successfully run a plague scenerio in DnD because of clerics. No one is afraid of diseases in DnD.

 

[InzeladunMaster]

Well, I think if you were to ask the people who believe they are inspired by a god, they would assure you that their god is very real and they could provide what they see as proof. Some of them say they have conversations with him and that he helps them out in their time of need. That is not my personal belief, but it is the belief of the people involved. I interviewed a woman the other day whose belief in god was complete. She has lived with terminal cancer for 14 years and attributes her longevity to god. To her, the very fact that she is alive is proof god exists and is active in the world. And she talks with him every morning.

Right. That kind of belief would be possible and appropriate - but, regardless of her faith, she still cannot cast divine spells, can she? That kind of faith could bolster Will saves, for example, like a code of honour, but I doubt she can cause earthquakes, perform cure light wounds or anything else. That level of belief is very possible. Certainly the characters will not know the gods are not real.

It is on-topic with the new topic. That is the way conversations work. Topics evolve and that is okay with me.

 

[thormagni]

This would not have worked in DnD. The man would have 12 levels of accumulated magic items and would have known the low-level barbarian could not hit him (AC too high) and if he did, the barbarian would not kill him (hp too high and damage of sword too low). He would have no reason to fear the barbarian. He would probably have the magic to blast away the barbarian. Thus the skill has no application here.

Of course, the flip side is that even a high level player can be killed by a low-level thug. So, when your carefully crafted, lovingly played PC gets taken out by some nobody pickpocket in a dark alley, you are just as screwed as the high-level guy we killed in the bar...

Further, if I allowed divine magic, then why doesn't everyone be clerics and gain access to that obvious power, all without cost? The reason everyone does not become a scholar in Conan? Because with that sort of power comes a price.

If gods are real, then I have a hard time imagining a world where everyone, regardless of social standing, hasn't taken at least one level of cleric. Why wouldn't they? Shoot, by joining a temple, I can Cure Light Wounds on myself? Sign me up!

Well, I would argue that we are missing a very critical piece of the puzzle, which is usually glossed over in the standard fantasy RPG -- devotion or piousness. This is my personal aggravation with religion in RPGs. Generally, a player cleric is basically a fighter with spells. They make little effort to make converts, to preach the gospel or to honor their diety. Instead they cast spells and swing a warhammer and say they sleep 8 hours a night to gain back their spells.

Why wouldn't people just join a temple to get a level of cleric? Because being a cleric is more than just joining a temple. It is an absolute devotion to a god and the god's goals. It is making concrete sacrifices and wearing clothing you don't want to and performing rituals you don't want to perform. It is about being a counselor and an emissary. Many people join a church but very few of them are ministers.

Think about your average minister. Think about how that minister interacts with people. What is his primary concern in life? God. Bringing people to god. Preaching god's will. Interpreting god's will and applying it to the situation at hand. How much of that does a typical PC cleric do? None. They have high wisdom and never use it for wise counsel. Nobody turns to the cleric and seeks guidance. Nobody converts to the cleric's religion in the party, ever. No PC cleric ever spends their money tithing it to the church, or doing service to the church.

In my opinion, if PC and NPC clerics actually ACTED like clerics, there wouldn't be a problem with giving them divine powers. They would have earned it, by their sacrifices. Sacrifices that others are not willing to make.

 

[thormagni]

Right. That kind of belief would be possible and appropriate - but, regardless of her faith, she still cannot cast divine spells, can she? That kind of faith could bolster Will saves, for example, like a code of honour, but I doubt she can cause earthquakes, perform cure light wounds or anything else. That level of belief is very possible. Certainly the characters will not know the gods are not real.

Neither can people regularly survive the wounds that fighters take, nor perform the feats of agility that a thief performs, nor cast sorcerous spells etc. etc. etc.