Tolkien v. Howard v. Lovecraft

[InzeladunMaster]

Well, I would argue that we are missing a very critical piece of the puzzle, which is usually glossed over in the standard fantasy RPG -- devotion or piousness. This is my personal aggravation with religion in RPGs. Generally, a player cleric is basically a fighter with spells. They make little effort to make converts, to preach the gospel or to honor their diety. Instead they cast spells and swing a warhammer and say they sleep 8 hours a night to gain back their spells.

Historically, priests did not preach or try to make converts. That is pretty much a Christian-era invention. Religion was more tied to race than belief.

Why wouldn't people just join a temple to get a level of cleric? Because being a cleric is more than just joining a temple. It is an absolute devotion to a god and the god's goals. It is making concrete sacrifices and wearing clothing you don't want to and performing rituals you don't want to perform. It is about being a counselor and an emissary. Many people join a church but very few of them are ministers.

Again, this is also not historically accurate. Most priests of pre-Christian times were priests because they inherited the position.

Besides, why would someone take a job they dislike? I am sure most clerics are happy to wear their clothes and do their rituals - it gives them a priveliged lifestyle, after all. I doubt it is much of a sacrifice - at least no more of a sacrifice than any other vocation.

Think about your average minister. Think about how that minister interacts with people. What is his primary concern in life? God. Bringing people to god. Preaching god's will. Interpreting god's will and applying it to the situation at hand. How much of that does a typical PC cleric do? None.

Nor should he. That would be too Christian and would not be the type of religion I would hope to see. The ancient priest was in charge of making his civilisation work and not get smashed by the gods (enemy forces). They did not preach and they did not really discuss theology.

They have high wisdom and never use it for wise counsel. Nobody turns to the cleric and seeks guidance. Nobody converts to the cleric's religion in the party, ever. No PC cleric ever spends their money tithing it to the church, or doing service to the church.

Service should be to the state and would probably never actually leave home except on diplomatic missions.

In my opinion, if PC and NPC clerics actually ACTED like clerics, there wouldn't be a problem with giving them divine powers. They would have earned it, by their sacrifices. Sacrifices that others are not willing to make.

Which would work fine if Cleric was a prestige class, not a core class. Historically though, ancient priests were among the privileged and did not actually make personal sacrifices - they sacrificed other people. In many ancient cultures, the priests were warriors who conducted rituals - which is how most people play them. I do not see DnD clerics in Inzeladun as evangelising Christians. They should be protectors of their nation's culture - and they do not need divine magic to do that, just a good weapon and a knowledge of ritual. A sword, a few ranks in Perform (ritual) and a desire to protect his people's way of life, and he is a bone-fide priest!

However, I did make a holy book for my God of War for Clerics to quote from, but as soon as I went to that much effort, no one wanted to play one.

 

[thormagni]

Like many other aspects of role-playing games, we combine a sense of the historical with a modern sensibility to create a fantasy world that never existed. No game is going to be completely historically faithful even one set in a ostensibly historic setting. But that is mainly because for the vast majority of people, over the vast majority of history, life pretty much was a short, miserable existence. Compared to today, health care was terrible. The food was terrible. Sanitation was terrible. The working conditions were terrible. The quality of life was terrible. And that is just for the elite. Conditions for the poor were frankly unimaginable to our middle class American experience. Today we live like kings would have wished to live 1,000 years ago (minus the harems and the sycophants, of course.)

So, I have never looked to history to be my determining factor in how to structure a fantasy world. Most elements of fantasy are completely foreign to true history. And any fantasy world is inherently illogical, once you try to figure out the impact of things like magic, feats and monsters.

Back to the discussion at hand, I am simply suggesting several options on how the divine and the idea of faith could be incorporated into a fantasy world, overcoming some of the logical issues that have been laid out here. None of my suggestions are interesting or palatable for your vision of your campaign world? I can understand that. Inzeladun is not my world and I have no stake in it. How would I know what might or might not fit into it?

 

[InzeladunMaster]

Well, I simply despise Christian evangelising and don't expect Clerics to act in that manner.

Your examples of how they may work in a generic fantasy setting are fine. For DnD RAW, they work well.

So, for DnD RAW, clerics are just fine. However, I don't like them. I don't like DnD sorcerers. I don't like DnD wizards. I don't like DnD Psionicists. I have come to dislike DnD RAW.

In my last several DnD RAW campaigns, the game fell apart for me at higher levels. Characters who understood some idea of the game mechanics (like Bob) became invincible and I had to resort to metagaming monstrosities just to provide a yawning sort-of challenge. Those who did not really understand the game mechanics died quickly, unfortunately. It was a very lopsided game.

I had to create temples and dungeons and castles that were immune to teleports, phase doors, divinations and a thousand other "game-over-immediately" spells. It became ridiculous. I had to nerf basic spells in order to have a game that lasted longer than a single, brief encounter. It wasn't fun for the players to have powers nerfed and it wasn't fun for the DM when he didn't nerf the powers.

It became a game where magic ruled the day, magic was the solution to every problem and magic defined the characters. They were psions, druids, sorcerers, wizards and clerics. There were no straight-class fighters. There were no straight-class thieves. They were outclassed quickly.

I am sick of that game.

I want the characters to stand on their own abilities, not on magic they have collected.

I also want a world where I don't have to worry about Resurrections or healing. I want plagues. I want strong characters who don't care what weapon they use, so long as they can find a weapon.

All of that are good reasons why Conan is a better game for me than DnD. All of those issues are taken care of.

 

[Grimhelm]

Okay, my two cents

This post should tie in with the "Changes to Inzeladun?" thread too.

Now, this is just my opinion, and I in no way mean this to sound holier than thou or high and mighty. I hope I can present it in a way that allows for contemplation and discussion...

3rd Edition D&D sucks. Here is why. Magic is far too powerful. Magic and combat at high levels is far too slow. Magic in the quantities necessary to play effectively in 3rd Edition renders the game much like a computer simulation role playing game. Effectively, it takes out the role playing and demands that either you become a munchkin, or you can kiss your sweet ass good bye.

I think the comparison of Next Generation Star Trek and Original Series is somewhat apt here. I long for the days of Kirk and Spock in D&D, where off the cuff style, quick thinking, and improvisation win the day, not techno babble, endless investigation, protocol, and rules. This is what I meant by the "institutions" of Inzeladun. They exist as fabric of the backdrop of the game, but they also exist as rules ad nauseum.

This game is a game of the mind and creativity. I say, let it stay there. Throw out miniatures, make magic harder to obtain, and throw out the damned rule books!!! Granted, this takes a lot of trust on the part of the players, trust that their DM isn't going to screw the hell out of them because he is incapable of making believeable decisions in believeable scenarios, but for god's sake, Vince Darlage is one of the greatest freaking DM's on earth. Has he forgotten this? Have his players? Do we need to rely on so much paperwork to have fun, or can we throw caution to the wind and sit down and play a game of the mind? I have become a pretty decent DM myself, if I may say so, and much to my surprise! And I can honestly say that when rules, paper, books and clap-trap enter the game, imagination, camaraderie, and verisimilitude fly immediately out the window. And don't we really play to escape? Don't we ultimately play to feel that we exist in reality in some far away distant, wonderful believable place? I know I do. So, this is my manifesto for role playing: Throw out the god-damned books and the god-damned rules. They have their place, but they should be drawn upon as little as possible. Oh, and one other thing. Death is the final word. No blanking resurrections. No raise dead. None of that drivel. Talk about immediate loss of verisimilitude and the element of danger. Here endeth the lesson. Amen. Acolytes will be around to your pew shortly to collect your money. Pay well. Your death and soul depends on it. Oh, yeah, and be prepared to shake my soft sweaty hand on your way out so you can have a first class idea of what the hands of a first class swindler feels like. Soft aren't they? God, I have it good. You poor deluded schmucks. If you only knew the half of it.

 

[InzeladunMaster]

Again, we are in agreement.

 

[thormagni]

Here is what I am hearing: Levels stink. Hit points stink. Magic stinks. Religion stinks. Magic weapons stink. Armor Class stinks. Nobody likes clerics. Psionicis stinks. Nobody likes wizards. Nobody likes sorcerors. Even druids are a pain in the butt. How about bards? Monsters aren't challenging. Players know the system too well and they are able to game it.

In all seriousness, let me ask this question (again): Why are you playing D&D at all? What do you like about D20 even, except it is mildly familiar, albeit not well liked?

Frankly, D&D and D20 has its limits. It is a system tailor designed for a high fantasy setting. D&D and D20 are not designed to be gritty. They are designed to be heroic. They are clearly not doing what you want them to do right now. Why are you trying to fit a round peg into a square hole?

Here are some systems that are substantially different than D&D and they have the benefit of being just pure systems, with no world setting necesarily attached.
1) Tri-Stat by Guardians of Order
2) Fuzion by R. Talsorian Games.
3) Open Core by Battlefield Press
4) Hero by Hero Games.
5) Rolemaster by Iron Crown Enterprises.
6) Palladium Fantasy by Palladium.
7) Gurps by Steve Jackson Games.
8) Action System by Gold Rush Games
9) Savage World by Pinnacle

As far as I know, all but Palladium are not class and level based at all.

You could even choose to try Amber, which is a diceless RPG with all interactions decided by a consensus and bidding process between players and the GM. And while it has a very detailed setting attached (Zelazny's Amber series of books) it could easily be detached from its setting.

Class and level and hit points and armor class are an artificial construct. A relic from 30+ years of game design. Trade up!

 

[thormagni]

Hell, if we are attached to the six basic stats, the D20 rolls, the skills and feats, I could probably come up with a workable non-class and non-level based RPG in a long afternoon just with the SRDs I have on my home computer.

 

[InzeladunMaster]

Actually, the Conan system works for me. Perfectly.

I don't mind levels and classes in general. It is the magic system of DnD that does not suit me. And you are right - playing the game I want with DnD rules does not work. Which is why I do not run DnD anymore.

The Conan rules give me exactly the game I want. I am not sure it will port well to Inzeladun, though.

 

[thormagni]

The Conan rules give me exactly the game I want. I am not sure it will port well to Inzeladun, though.

D20 is like gaming heroin, once you get hooked on it, you can't imagine your gaming life without it. Addicts. ADDICTS, I tell you! Ya hate the pusher but you need the drug

 

[thormagni]

I don't mind levels and classes in general.

Classes and levels are the most artificial construct in the entire D&D/D20 system, IMHO. It is the original sin from which all the other sins follow.