Too bad they didn't have glasses back then...

[Friend of the Dork]

Well, at least since the existence of internet boards we know that there is no such thing as common sense. I guess, game designers should have realized that, too

However, if a rule produces results that seem silly to me, I'm not going to use it, unless one of my players can convince me it isn't silly after all!

So is the thread's point really that the rules are missing a guideline saying: "Don't call for checks if there's no need to?" I'm almost certain that this is spelled out somewhere in the section about gamemastering.

The problem here is that DMs generally loves to call for checks when there is no need. Crossing a river? Swim check! Climbing a tree? Climb check, even if the tree is only 10' tall and practically harmless to a 3rd level fighter.

Same thing applies in combat really. Do you really need to roll anything when there is a 10th level fighter killing a level 1 warrior Kobold? Of course not, it's practically impossible for the fighter to lose. Sure he can roll a 1, but the kobold will probably not kill him even with 20 rounds of attacking with his short sword (1d4-x damage).

But the rules (not even guidelines here) say you always roll attack rolls, which do you until a DM says "ok you kill the kobold congrats."

So even if there is an obsdcure tip about PC generally not needing to roll at a task the DM thinks he will manage easily, the specific rules pretty much dictates rolling unless failure is impossible (say a ride check to guide a mount with knees for a trained PC). Which is coincidentally a check I would think anyone but very good riders would have problems with... so I am going to demand a check unless the PC CAN'T fail even on a 1.

 

[Jhaelen]

so I am going to demand a check unless the PC CAN'T fail even on a 1.

*shrug* Whatever rocks your boat, Cheers!

 

[IronWolf]

The problem here is that DMs generally loves to call for checks when there is no need. Crossing a river? Swim check! Climbing a tree? Climb check, even if the tree is only 10' tall and practically harmless to a 3rd level fighter.

I think this depends on DMs and ones you've had for your group. I am sure there are DMs that like to call skill checks for everything, just as I am sure there are DMs that adjust DCs appropriately to the point of not needing to roll a skill check.

As for the crossing the river, if the group has to swim then decent chance I would call a swim check. If the group actually found a place to ford the river, then I would not call for a swim check as they found a spot to cross safely.

Most of my characters would take ten on the climbing a tree if the DM was calling for a check. For those that can't climb, he'd likely question the need for the whole party to climb the tree or ask for someone to drop a knotted rope to assist with the climb.

So even if there is an obsdcure tip about PC generally not needing to roll at a task the DM thinks he will manage easily, the specific rules pretty much dictates rolling unless failure is impossible (say a ride check to guide a mount with knees for a trained PC). Which is coincidentally a check I would think anyone but very good riders would have problems with... so I am going to demand a check unless the PC CAN'T fail even on a 1.

It is still up to the DM to set an appropriate DC for the check in question, they are the one that might know extenuating circumstances which may increase or decrease the difficulty of the check. If a task is easy and the DM would rather not see rolls have to be made, set the DC appropriately so that rolls aren't needed. This lets the game move forward and not get hung up on game time being spent on the party rolling to see if they can complete menial tasks.

 

[Friend of the Dork]

*shrug* Whatever rocks your boat, Cheers!

In case I may have been misunderstood... if the Char's ride modifier is +4 or greater I do not require a roll.

I think this depends on DMs and ones you've had for your group. I am sure there are DMs that like to call skill checks for everything, just as I am sure there are DMs that adjust DCs appropriately to the point of not needing to roll a skill check.

As for the crossing the river, if the group has to swim then decent chance I would call a swim check. If the group actually found a place to ford the river, then I would not call for a swim check as they found a spot to cross safely.

Most of my characters would take ten on the climbing a tree if the DM was calling for a check. For those that can't climb, he'd likely question the need for the whole party to climb the tree or ask for someone to drop a knotted rope to assist with the climb.



It is still up to the DM to set an appropriate DC for the check in question, they are the one that might know extenuating circumstances which may increase or decrease the difficulty of the check. If a task is easy and the DM would rather not see rolls have to be made, set the DC appropriately so that rolls aren't needed. This lets the game move forward and not get hung up on game time being spent on the party rolling to see if they can complete menial tasks.

I agree. I tend to get DMs who hates take 10 and disallows it on tests where failure has consequences (climb, stealth, disable device etc). Some even disallows take 20 outright... but that's not really relevant. I allow both and prefer my players to use them.

I think my point back there was that not all DC in the rules/guidelines are appropriate. The aforementioned no-hand riding for instance.. if it was easy enough that any skilled rider can do it automatically, there would be no need for the invention of reins in the first place. A base DC 15 might be more appropriate, at least if you want anything but full speed ahead.

Climbing a rope DC 10... yikes I've tried that in real life and I'm not strong and light enough. And we're talking a non-knotted rope here, in mid-air. A strong fighter with light/no armor and a rank or two in climb should pull this off easily, but a wizard with 8 str? Or your average D&D geek?

Swim in calm water DC 10.. this might actually be a bit high. For the untrained, sure, but for anyone with training in swim it should be pretty much automatic. DC 5 maybe?

Well probably more out there.. feel free to disagree or not. I feel changing this would be a houserule, and could frustrate players if I didn't inform them about such changes beforehand.