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Too little general usefulness for implements?

Tuft

First Post
I see. Thanks for replying, I guess.

I trust you don't mind me hoping you're wrong...?! :)

Basically, what you are trying to do is ram a simulationist square peg into a gamist round hole.

Magic Items, and how Magic Items tie to Character Builds are one of the more gameist areas of 4E. You won't make it fit without either adapting a more gameistic economy, or by rewriting the entire set of magic items to fit the drop model you advocate - that is, introducing magic items that truly benefit all, such as the stat boosters of 3.0/3.5.
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
Take a leaf from how weapons and armor are handled: you have a bunch of generic enchantments which can usually be applied to a variety of weapons and armor.

Similarly, either come up with a bunch of generic enchantments which can be applied to a variety of implements, or go through the existing list of implement enchantments and decide which are generic enough to be applied to the other implements as well. You can even crib from the list of weapon enhancements. Why can't you have a lucky wand that functions like a luck blade, for example? IMO, it even fits thematically with the idea of the wand as a precision implement.
Yes exactly. Thanks.

As for wands, I'm "taking a leaf" from FRPG, where certain items use "Best Mental Attribute" as their key. That is, a wand-user can use Int, Wis or Cha; regardless of which actual power stored in the wand.

To be honest, that this isn't already an official rule baffles me.
 

Tuft

First Post
I'm complaining how poorly an item translate from being in the possession of the BBEG to being in the possession of the player character.

That comes from exception-based design and gameism; monsters are not built the same as player characters, do no follow the same rules, do not have the same classes and class builds, and do not use magic items the same way that PCs do.

If you want magic items to translate well from BBEGs to PCs, you have to do something about those facts.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Basically, what you are trying to do is ram a simulationist square peg into a gamist round hole.

Magic Items, and how Magic Items tie to Character Builds are one of the more gameist areas of 4E. You won't make it fit without either adapting a more gameistic economy, or by rewriting the entire set of magic items to fit the drop model you advocate - that is, introducing magic items that truly benefit all, such as the stat boosters of 3.0/3.5.
Sorry, but I've been around these forums too long...

Essentially I view a post like yours as threadcrapping. You're trying to convince me I'm wrong in using D&D for a game other than that where the Orb looted from the BBEG should be non-magical and instead they find a Longbow or Holy Symbol neatly tucked away in the BBEG's Chest of Loot?

Sorry, but I won't bite. Please start a new thread if you wish to continue down that lane. Saying "like it or go play another game" isn't what I call a useful contribution to the discussion, sorry. This thread is for discussing ways to solve the situation. I don't care what forms you're trying to convince me the pegs and the holes have.
 

FireLance

Legend
As for wands, I'm "taking a leaf" from FRPG, where certain items use "Best Mental Attribute" as their key. That is, a wand-user can use Int, Wis or Cha; regardless of which actual power stored in the wand.

To be honest, that this isn't already an official rule baffles me.
An alternative might simply be to fix the attack bonus for a wand power based on the level of the wand, similar to what is done for alchemical items. Maybe wand level + 4, so that a 3rd-level wand gives a +7 attack bonus?
 

CapnZapp

Legend
That comes from exception-based design and gameism; monsters are not built the same as player characters, do no follow the same rules, do not have the same classes and class builds, and do not use magic items the same way that PCs do.

If you want magic items to translate well from BBEGs to PCs, you have to do something about those facts.
A good point. However, I'm not sure I follow...

If the BBEG is a Drow Priestess, how can't she benefit from a powerful Holy Symbol?

(Saying she technically isn't a Cleric is awfully restrictive. And anyway if that was the only issue I would be thankful, seeing how easy it is to solve! ;))

To me, the issue is instead when the Priestess is dead and the group realizes they do not have any Leader, or that they have Bard and Shaman leaders only.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
An alternative might simply be to fix the attack bonus for a wand power based on the level of the wand, similar to what is done for alchemical items. Maybe wand level + 4, so that a 3rd-level wand gives a +7 attack bonus?
Could work. Noted. Thanks.

However, I'm curious - are you suggesting this alternative because you feel the BMA option is too powerful on average?

That feat should really have said "Choose one implement and one class. You get to use that implement as that class."
Likewise, I'm interested in hearing opinions on the balance/brokenness of simple fixes like this one... :)
 
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Saeviomagy

Adventurer
I don't know about the specifics of tomes, but I do know that a lot of the enchantments around could benefit heavily from a removal of their restriction descriptors. There's plenty of abilities that could be great for any class if it weren't for bizarre class and source restrictions on them.

Or for that matter restrictions on weapon/implement type or armor type.

There's a fair few balance problems the game suffers because key enchantment combos only work for certain classes. If a wizard daily would be broken if he could make it vorpal(for instance), how can the equivalent fighter power possibly be balanced?

Not to mention the problem where a warlock, say, requires a specific rod to get his class damage feature boosted instead of a feat like all the other strikers...
 

Mentat55

First Post
I think the simplest solution is to generate a few standard implements whose properties could function reasonably as holy symbols, orbs, rods, tomes, and what have you.

Depending on how free-flowing or restrictive you want to make it, you might also have some implements that are specified for a power source -- so the hypothetical Implement of Arcane Admixture is a generic arcane implement, which can only appear in the form of an orb, rod, staff, tome, or wand, while the Righteous Implement only appears as a holy symbol, staff, or rod. In some ways, this would be analogous to magic weapons that must be ranged, or heavy blades, or hammers, etc.

You could also house rule that if you can use wand as an implement, you can similarly use the wand's power using your key ability score. That would fix most wands for the wand using classes (bards, warlocks, wizards).

One other option: go the other direction. Eliminate the Transfer Enchantment ritual. Now weapon users use the weapon they found. I don't find it satisfying, but it does level the field a bit.
 

Eric Finley

First Post
What you're looking for here is (as far as I can tell) a way to promote character flexibility about the magic items they receive. Transfer Enchantment, and simply the fungibility of swords/axes/etc. in the first place, makes that easy for one set, but not for the other, because of how distinct implements are.

But my first question is this: why does "The staff the tiefling was holding" have only one tagged function? Why, in your campaign, is a power which functions only for wizards present at all, if you have no wizards? Remember that in exception-based design, what it does in the monster's hands is supposed to have no necessary relation to what it does in the PCs'. Yet for magic items this seems to be typically forgotten. (Obviously, for style reasons it's usually similar. But it need not be exactly the same.)

Extrapolate that. The staff that did X in the NPC wizard's hands can't do X in the PC warlock's hands, because X is irrelevant to the warlock. Fine. What's the closest analogue you can come up with that won't be irrelevant to your warlock?

If you choose to require facility with that implement in order for it to not be irrelevant, that's fine; the Implement Proficiency feats exist for that reason. But that doesn't stop it from being irrelevant once they take the feat, hence the other suggestions in this thread. If you want the item to be potentially relevant to your warlock PC, then the onus is on you to further specify how this object can become relevant.

Ruling that you get to use it with your best mental stat is one approach, and not a bad one. But that's a special case of the general one. They're your magic items.

Try to think of it like this. Every enchanted implement in your game should most properly be listed something like this:

Orb of Warping Space
Implement, Orb
Wizard (Daily, Free Action) - Use this power when you hit with an area or close spell with this implement. Note the squares occupied by all creatures successfully hit by this attack. Until the end of your next turn, the next time you use an area or close spell, those squares are added to the area of effect.
Warlock (Encounter, free action) - When you apply your Warlock's Curse to a target, apply it through this item. Until the end of your next turn, you calculate line of sight, line of effect, and range starting from that creature instead of from yourself. You cannot target the creature out of whose eyes you are looking using this effect, unless they actually look into a mirror or the like.
Swordmage (Property) - You may affix this item to the hilt of your bonded sword. The sword functions as an implement using the higher of its own bonuses or this orb's bonuses, and is otherwise statistically unchanged. When you invoke your aegis power, in addition to the usual effects, you may teleport the ally targeted by the triggering action two squares.
Bard (Daily, Standard action) - Throw this item into any square you can reach with a light thrown improvised weapon. (If actually thrown at a creature, it has a proficiency bonus of +2 and applies its enhancement bonus to the attack and damage rolls.) Until the end of the encounter, when using a bard power you have line of sight, line of effect, and range to any creature in the same square the orb, regardless of the normal range of the power.

... and so forth. What does X enchantment do that is cool, in the hands of the relevant PC? This is easy for weapons, less easy for implements... but as shown above, it can end up cooler for the reinterpretation necessary.

(Also note that in my example, only the Wizard's usage actually requires that it be usable as an implement. Loosen the rule that you can't use an implement's power if you're unable to use it as an implement in general, and you still have a reason to want Implement Proficiency - so you can use the enhancement bonus on it - but you can still get utility out of it regardless.)

And, of course, since you're doing this for a specific campaign, you don't need to design all those usages. Just the relevant ones to your players. Heck, if you want to make it interesting, do something along the lines of the swordmage's ability above, and let it be useful for the martial types, too, so they get to argue over it. Equivalent backward-swaps with weapons are also perfectly possible. Let the wizard cast spells through the Flaming Longsword even though he's not an Eladrin Sword Mage or similar; he won't get the enhancement bonuses until he gets proficiency, but maybe he can still use it to light his Magic Missiles and Cloud of Daggers on fire.
 

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