D&D 5E Too Much Healing Going On?

[Umbran]

Now, I think more to the point is you never know when that dangerous encounter is coming up, so yes you want to be as full in HP as you generally can. The issue then becomes, the medium and hard encounters might drain some resources, but they really aren't a challenge.

Well, yeah., that should be expected. If you can take on a big thing and survive, smaller things won't be a challenge.

I don't have a guess why that bugs you.

 

[iserith]

After the thread about 4E Healing Surges, I looked at our main campaign when we played yesterday and realized something disturbing:

We have so much healing, we enter each encounter general 90+% of maximum HP. Rarely, we have a string of fights, with little to no time in between, and then HP attrition becomes an issue, but those are rare.

We have a PC with the healer feat and several PCs are MC healing spellcasters such as a bard, 2 clerics, a druid, and a paladin. In Tier 3, with Beacon of Hope, Mass Cure Wounds, Healing Spirits, etc. we can heal several hundred HP if needed. Throw in short rests and healing potions, and it is really over the top at this point.

In a major battle against 3 dragons on Saturday, we probably healed maybe 1000 points or more of collective damage to the party.

So, granted, we are a large party, nearing Tier 4, but still it seems crazy when I actually think about it.

Do you find this to be about the same in your game? Or is healing hard to come by? I know level plays a big factor, but what about in general terms overall?

With my regular group, generally the only healing anyone takes is healing word and that's only used to bring someone back up from dying. Most healing comes from rests and healing potions, if they are purchasable. Most of the players prefer to reserve their spell slots for offense, defense, and utility (as opposed to healing). There's often a pretty big focus on getting AC up there, too. It's not uncommon to see multiple PCs who can cast shield.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I think you feeling strange is kinda the problem here, rather than anything else.

You have four characters who can output a lot of healing. Druids can heal crazy amounts (esp. if you haven't nerfed Healing Spirit and it sounds like you might not have - otherwise it heals for a joke amount), Clerics are really solid-to-great depending on subclass, and Paladin is a whole chunk of healing. I don't see your total party size or if anyone else can either heal or generate THP, but I presume there's a bit of that too.

Given that the biggest death-risk in 5E, is starting a fight on low HP, getting downed instantly (then either taking enough damage to die instantly, or taking multiple hits which force extra death saves), and they have four strong healers in the party, why on earth would they be starting fights, intentionally, on less than maximum HP? Sounds like you're mid-to-high level, too, so they have a huge depth of spell slots to pull on, too.

Add in that they're using HD and potions sensibly, and it sounds like what you're complaining about is a big fat case of "Working As Intended". A big clue is in the healing potions. If they weren't being pressed at all, if they felt totally safe, they wouldn't be using consumables like that. They'd just stay in their bags to rot.

I don't think you need to change anything, just get on board with the fact that the party is healing heavy.

We did nerf Healing Spirit as it can only heal 1d6 once per round (so 10d6 over a minute) and we use it out of combat mostly. 35 HP for a 2nd level spell is still a lot, but the time requirement balances it out somewhat IMO.

Yes, we are levels 14 or 15.

The healing potions are used nearly only out of combat, to save spell slots, lay on hands, etc. just to top them off. Of course, using Beacon of Hope and 10 healing potions restores 100 HP in a minute.

You're not thinking like a player.

A player doesn't want their PC to die. You're sneering at 30-point hits, but they could be crits for 50. And four thirty-point hits landing on a 110 HP character means they're down, and in need of massive healing.

Also, did they start around 10-14, or did they level to there normally? Because at lower levels, and awful lot of hits are 15 or 20 HP when you only have 30 or 50 HP, and it's only as you get to higher levels to the amounts of damage tend to seem relatively lower vs HP totals. So they'll be playing cautiously because they remember how it was.

You say "Oh for a dangerous encounter you want to be on full HP! But medium and hard aren't a challenge!". Well, buddy you got two separate issues here. And both of them stem from not thinking like a player. A player doesn't know what the "difficulty" on the next encounter is going to be. They have to assume every next encounter is Deadly. Not sure why you're not getting that. So they heal up to full, because it would be outright stupid not to, if they have the opportunity and it doesn't blow too many resources (and they seem to managing resources extremely well). And guess what? Medium encounters at 12th level aren't challenging. At all. There's no chance of death or real risk. That's how they are. Hard ones are rarely much more threatening. But they do drain resources, and that does add up. Players feel the challenge, as people have been trying to explain, because they see all the boxes for spell slots filling up, and their HD going down (and remember, you only get 50% HD back on a long rest). But DMs can be like you and be like "Pfffft you guys are all on full, whatevs...". So accept that medium/hard are there to burn resources, more than to provide "challenges" or the like. They burn a lot more resources if approached in a bad way.

Oh, those fire giant hits hurt, but when your front-liners average 150 hp, with pretty good ACs, it isn't that bad really. Especially when you know after the battle is over, you'll get topped off again.

We started at level 1. Even then it wasn't too bad, but again many encounters the PCs began with max HP.

I am both player and DM. I get it. When I play, I don't know when a deadly encounter is coming, which is why I've said in other posts we top off whenever we can simply because of that. As a player, I don't really feel the challenge in (most) medium and hard encounters. Sure, I might use a spell slot or two, or heal people up afterwards, but not so much I stress over it.

When I DM, I see the other side. It seems like a waste of time to have encounters simply designed to drain resources. Now, don't get me wrong, from a story and "realist" point of view, it makes perfect sense. Not everything running around out in the world will be a threat after all.

 

[Oofta]

It can be difficult to challenge higher level parties no matter what their makeup. Add in that most parties will have ways of starting fights at 100% health and sometimes you need to change tactics. My quick top 5:

1. Focus fire. Pick on one PC and don't let up, keep attacking until they're down. Depending on the group and preference keep attacking until they're dead.
2. Send in waves. Especially if there's always that PC that hides in the back, send in reinforcements from the back now and then. Then focus fire on the PC in the back.
3. Customize monsters. The MM was published before the DMG so sometimes I'll go back to the DMG and recalculate damage and HP.
4. Change the goalposts. Don't make it one side killing the other, change up the goals so one time it's stopping the doomsday device the next it's stopping the bad guys from getting the McGuffin. If you do this, don't be afraid to send in overwhelming number of opponents.
5. Change the goalposts II. Banish PCs, lock them in force cages, incapacitate them.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

As a player, I don't really feel the challenge in (most) medium and hard encounters.

Yeah because they're just not challenging at those levels. Doesn't matter if you're a lower-healing party, they're still not actually challenging.

It seems like a waste of time to have encounters simply designed to drain resources

And that's a fair concern but it's fundamentally how 5E is designed. I believe it's a serious design error, or rather a choice that should not have been made, but it they choice they made. It also makes the short/long rest class disparity much worse. There's no getting around it short of playing another edition.

@Oofta Good list. That's basically all the things I've had to do to try and make encounters for an L14-15 party actually exciting in 5E.

 

[dave2008]

When I DM, I see the other side. It seems like a waste of time to have encounters simply designed to drain resources.

Then don't. Personally I design encounters that make sense to my vision of the world we are playing in and let the chips fall were they will. It works extremely well for us. I don't have to worry about encounter budgets and difficulty and the PCs are always prepared for the worst, but happy/relieved to quickly dispatch minor threats.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I know encounter design is part of it, but there is just something about it all that rubs me the wrong way... I'll have to think more on it.

It actually makes encounter design easier if you can assume the party will begin an encounter with near full hp, rather than trying to guess how beat up they will be at any particular point. It's also reflected in 5e monster design, with many single attacks doing more damage than in pervious editions, enough to wipe out a near full hp bar.

It also reflects the idea the PCs are "heroes". If a hero (or even a sidekick) dies, it at the hands of a major villain or monster. They don't get worn down by a long string of encounters with oversize rats.

And remember, the monsters almost always start with full hp. What goes for one side should go for the other.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

When I DM, I see the other side. It seems like a waste of time to have encounters simply designed to drain resources.

That's not really what non-deadly encounters are for. Non-deadly encounters exist to let the PCs show how awesome they are.

 

[dave2008]

@dnd4vr if your looking for a more attrition based play then stock D&D 5e and PF2e are not what you are looking for (but I think you know that). However, there are ways to make them more like what you want. I just don't think it, at this point, it is worth the investment for you. I know your time with 5e is limited.

 

[Minigiant]

I think the issues is...

~1/2 of D&D classeshave healing spells and healing magic. And if you use feats, your basic items do to. That's before you count potions and magic items.