Too powerful? What am I missing... (please help)

[irdeggman]

The fact that with the same basic highest level attack (Scorching Ray), the Evoker (Mr. Nuke) does 14 points whereas the Wilder does 22.5. At 4th level, it is still the Evoker's highest level spell and he still does 14 points and the Wilder does 27.

The OP has a problem that the Wilder blows away opponents so quickly and he doesn't have to be on a charging horse to do so.

So how do we address that issue - instead of continuing down the path of whether psionics are too powerful or not?

I (and others) have made several suggestions (that didn't involve creating any house-rules) and haven't seen you provide any except an analysis of why psions are more powerful.

The suggestions:

Utilize the restricitions/limitations on psionics:

range, psionic focus

Use more than single encounters per day.

 

[Technik4]

I'm in the middle of trying to make a psionic character for an eberron game that is starting at level 2. My concept is a kalashtar orphan, and I'd like to make a gish-like (meaning fighter/mage) psionic character.

My first impulse was SoulKnife1/Psion1 (Nomad) and let's see what happens. Today I've been going through some of the builds, and sparked by the conversation, looking at the Wilder class specifically.

To cut to the chase, I'm dismayed by the Wilder class, to be honest. Their powers known number is abominable. I was stretching myself trying to find ways to shore up the weaknesses, but lets boil it down to the essentials:

You get 1 power per 'spell level'. The exceptions are 'spell level' 1 and 9, you get 2 powers for that 'spell level'. Expanded Knowledge is a great feat for Wilders, feat-starved or not they are supremely spell-starved.

Here are some potential Wilders at different levels:

Rayman
Human Wilder6, PB Shot, Precise Shot, Empower Power, Split Ray
Powers Known: Energy Ray, Vigor, Energy Push, Psionic Blast
Attack: +4
PP: 35 + Bonus Points
Typical Attack w/in 30 ft:
+5 touch attack w/ Energy Ray (Fire) using Wild Surge +2 against one opponent (6d6+7 [28 average] for 6 power points.
Alternately splitting the ray to two targets (6d6+7 x2 [approx 56 damage total]) for 6 Power Points (can use this at least 6 times in one day, but full-round to regain focus to split rays). Enervation chance: 10%
Tactics:
Nova and cross fingers no enervation. In the event he does run out of Power Points, makes an OK back-up crossbowman . If things get hair and he needs to run, he can vigor up some big hp first. Basically a glass cannon though.
Future:
Power Specialization is a neat feat, but you have to pick up WF Rays to get it. Psionic Meditation is probably a better idea to get your focus back faster. There aren't any more good damaging rays until 'Disintegrate, Psionic' so this is one trick (or 2, with Energy Push) that may get old fast.

Kino
Elf Wilder9, Psicrystal, Psicrystal Containment, Expanded Knowledge - Energy Missile*, Privileged Energy
Powers Known: Energy Ray, Deceleration, Energy Stun, Solicit Psicrystal, Dimension Door, Psionic, and Energy Missile*
PP: 72 + Bonus Points
Typical Attack (Medium Range ~190-220 ft.):
Cold Energy Missiles using Wild Surge +3 and Privileged Energy (12d6+24 to up to 5 targets, DC 21 + Stat Mod Fortitude Save for Half [approx 66 per target if they fail]) for 9 power points. Can use this trick at least 8 times a day, Enervation chance: 15%
or
Short Range (40-55 ft.):
+6 (+Dexterity mod) ranged touch attack w/Cold Energy Ray using Wild Surge +3 and Privileged Energy (12d6+24 to one target, no save [66 damage]) for 9 power points. Enervation chance: 15%

Tactics:
Stay back and blast enemies that clump. Deceleration can help them stay back and Dimension Door can get you to a better position if they get close.
Future:
This kineticist in disguise is probably going for the Energy Current trick KarinsDad describes above (what with Solicit Psicrystal).


I'm not sure I calculated my numbers right, but these guys can dish it out, quickly and with little chance for error. They can also do it quite a few times per day. The correct comparison is not a barbarian, but a sorcerer. Here's a quick mock-up (and I'll be extra nice and level the Sorcerer to 7 so he gets an extra ray, otherwise you're comparing 4d6+1 to 6d6+7, possibly to 2 targets):

Scorch
Human Sor7, PB Shot, Precise Shot, ???, ???
Spells Known: 0-7, 1-4, 2-Scorching Ray, ???; 3-Fireball, ???
Spells/Day: 0-6, 1-7, 2-7, 3-5
Typical Attack w/in 30 ft:
+4 (+Dex mod) Scorching Ray (2 ranged attacks must be rolled) for 8d6+2 damage [30 average]. Can do this at most 7 times per day (unless he got a ridiculous Cha).
or
long range attack
7d6 damage in 20 ft radius (reflex save for half) [25 average].

I'm not going to redo the stats, but a Wilder gets Energy Surge +3 at 7th, as well as a BAB increase (so he can outdamage the sorcerer, barring enervation, and also has a higher chance to hit with his ranged touch attacks (but both are probably 90-95% anyway)).

Wow, that was really long. In short, Psionics can do some break-neck damage that you might not see coming (especially Wilders). Further, they can easily change the elemental type which sorcerers can't do until prestige classes, and they do outpace them damage-wise at a few different levels. They also have more skill points, hit points, a better BAB, and the ability to wear armor at the cost of less powers (and therefore utility).

So for a minor utility hit, play a wilder and do more damage than a sorcerer of equivalent level, most of the time (but be lucky with enervation rolls! )

 

[AllisterH]

So how do we address that issue - instead of continuing down the path of whether psionics are too powerful or not?

I (and others) have made several suggestions (that didn't involve creating any house-rules) and haven't seen you provide any except an analysis of why psions are more powerful.

The suggestions:

Utilize the restricitions/limitations on psionics:

range, psionic focus

Use more than single encounters per day.

Didn't the thread come about because it was implied that you didn't have to change your campaign style to integrate psionics? Well, at least you're admitting that this isn't true.

Psionics, may or may not be overpowered, but unlike a lot other expansions, you do have to change your campaign style. For example, I don't feel that I need to change how I run battles if I use either Tome of Battle adepts or the Warlock or any of the new spontaneous characters.

Psionics though, make great badguys. The ability to nova in a battle actually favors enemies since you don't have to spend PP on different encounters. This is actually why many of the players in my group don't actually use psionic characters since it has always been the method of my group that if you use feat X/splatbook Y/spell Z the DM gets to use it as well and boy oh boy, do they hate psionics.

 

[Slaved]

I thought the thread was about the original poster wondering if the wilder was out of balance with the rest of the game.

I do not see anything in this thread that would require the game to be changed any more than any other class already does.

Tome of battle is great in that it replaces a per day system with a per battle system. That is much more balanced over many different campaigns. Do you want 1 battle a day? 10? 100? No problem!

 

[AllisterH]

I thought the thread was about the original poster wondering if the wilder was out of balance with the rest of the game.

I do not see anything in this thread that would require the game to be changed any more than any other class already does.

Tome of battle is great in that it replaces a per day system with a per battle system. That is much more balanced over many different campaigns. Do you want 1 battle a day? 10? 100? No problem!

Ah but it does force a DM to change. As you yourself mentioned, if I run 2 "encounters" per day (not necessarily combat but even say an investigation), psionic characters require you add on 3-4 encounters. Not so with either the warlock or the martial adept who are both balanced for either scenario.

 

[Slaved]

Ah but it does force a DM to change.

Every character build does. Each has their own set of abilities attatched which will shift how everything works.

You mention the warlock which I believe there is a thread going on right now that mentions it being rather weak on offense. Of course it has incredible abilities like being able to fly all day, blow up non-magical objects at will, get a very high diplomacy check early on, dimension door at will, animate dead at will without components, see invisibility constantly, and others.

I believe that all characters force change in how the dungeon master runs his game, this is to be expected.

 

[KarinsDad]

Every character build does. Each has their own set of abilities attatched which will shift how everything works.

...

I believe that all characters force change in how the dungeon master runs his game, this is to be expected.

I believe this does not need to be true.

As a DM, I do not tailor encounters around PC abilities.

I do tailor encounters around storyline and PC backgrounds.

I do not even tailor magical items around PCs except for a very few extremely rare plot element items. PCs mostly find random stuff in my game or stuff tailored for a specific major NPC. I find it more interesting for the PCs to try to find a buyer for the magical Ranseur and possibly search hard for a less powerful magical Greatsword for the Barbarian as opposed to putting magical Greatswords in the game because there is a PC Barbarian in the game. Ditto for encounters.

 

[KarinsDad]

I (and others) have made several suggestions (that didn't involve creating any house-rules) and haven't seen you provide any except an analysis of why psions are more powerful.

The suggestions:

Utilize the restricitions/limitations on psionics:

range, psionic focus

Use more than single encounters per day.

I never suggested to not ever do these, especially the first one. The rules are the rules and should not be bent for Psionics.

But, that does not mean that the DM should go out of his way to make the game hard for the psionic PC either. The DM should either not allow psionic PCs, or he should live with them without staying up late at night thinking of ways to screw over the psionic PC with various types of ambushes and such.

 

[KarinsDad]

Easily available options are stretches? We have very different ways of looking at the game!

How many monsters have Spell Turning? How many NPC Fighters? Bards? Rogues? Rangers? Monks? Druids? Scouts? Barbarians? Even in ring form, it is not reasonable for an NPC to have one before level 20 (and then, spending too high a percentage of his wealth on it).

Yes, I consider Spell Turning as a viable discussion point on this topic (especially with regard to level 11/12 PCs) to be extremely ludicrous. I cannot even comprehend why you brought it up other than as minutia.


Energy Resistance is a more viable option for most casters than Spell Turning, but not typically in round one. And it is not the type of spell that should necessarily be prepared by casters every day unless they expect to get into a fight with a energy lobber. Even if they do have one prepared, they should rarely have enough prepared for their allies as well.

And while they are casting ER as a defensive spell, the intelligent PC Wilder can be throwing a different energy type at them.


So yes, we do indeed have very very different ways of looking at the game. I look at it as a reasonable and plausible set of choices by the DM in making selections and decisions for NPCs and you apparently look at it as "these defenses are all over the game and the DM should be giving them to most every NPC".

 

[hong]

So yes, we do indeed have very very different ways of looking at the game. I look at it as a reasonable and plausible set of choices by the DM in making selections and decisions for NPCs and you apparently look at it as "these defenses are all over the game and the DM should be giving them to most every NPC".

Stupid rock/paper/scissors balancing paradigm. Die, stupid rock/paper/scissors balancing paradigm.