Too powerful? What am I missing... (please help)

[Kaledor]

ASF would be absolutely terrible for Wilders, since Wilders have a class ability that only works in armour.

Ah yes: Elude Touch (Ex)

Dang it. Which leads to more house rules (eg, remove the limit in the description...)

 

[irdeggman]

Does not matter much, but 25 + 5/2 is 35 feet at maximum for the wilder right? 4/2=2, 2x5=10, 25+10=35.

Oops, that makes my point even more effective then.

 

[irdeggman]

Ah yes: Elude Touch (Ex)

Dang it. Which leads to more house rules (eg, remove the limit in the description...)

And that is what I find to happens when introducing house rules - the despicable "domino effect", one small change leads to another small change and so on. . . .

 

[Kaledor]

Perhaps you've missed that the wizard can scribe scrolls - a LOT of scrolls. And brew potions. Your wizard doesn't just have his allotment of memorised spells; he has all those scrolls he's written and potions he's brewed. And just wait for him to get Craft Wand...

Yes, but each of those things takes either xp or gp.
I've never had a player that was really interesting in "losing" xp -- they'd rather wait to find it in treasure or go without (or if the DM's generous, purchase them from large towns).

And psionic characters have access to similar items (dorje's, power stones, tattoos...whatever) so it's not a bonus just for arcane casters...

 

[KarinsDad]

@starwed--Warmage and Sorcerer would be a better comparison, true, but not at 3rd level when they are a spell level behind, which is why the results are skewed in the Wilder's favour in that case.

Not true.

Look at 4th level. It's just as bad and 4th level is a good level for Warmage's and Sorcerers:

Rounds     1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9   10   11
Wilder    27   27   27   22.5 
Sorcerer  14   14   14   14    9    9    9    9    9    9    9

Sure, the Sorcerer does 119 points of damage overall to the Wilder's 103.5, but the Wilder does nearly twice the damage when he Surges (which he is not forced to do). Most 4th level opponents would have a major problem (i.e. seriously damaged or unconscious) with 27 points of damage from a single attack (e.g. a 4th level NPC Cleric with 12 Con averages 25.5 hit points). That's just one attack. The Wilder also has slightly better range.

Range Wilder: 40
Range Sorcerer: 35

 

[irdeggman]

Yes, but each of those things takes either xp or gp.
I've never had a player that was really interesting in "losing" xp -- they'd rather wait to find it in treasure or go without (or if the DM's generous, purchase them from large towns).

And psionic characters have access to similar items (dorje's, power stones, tattoos...whatever) so it's not a bonus just for arcane casters...

Do you know how cheap scrolls are?

I have a player with a dwarf fighter/wizard who routinely carries a whole batch of scrolls.

1/25 market value in xp and 1/2 in gp.

Scrolls market value is = Sl x Cl x 25 gp.

So a 2nd level spell cast by a 3rd level caster ahs a market value of:

2 x 3 x 25 = 150 gp.

Material costs are: 75 gp

xp cost is 6 xp

Really, really usefulfor a wizard. Not as much for a sorcerer though. But for a character with a pretty much unlimited maximum spells known list it is really handy to scribe those spells you need situationally but don't want to tie up a spell slot with (like knock for instance).

 

[Enforcer]

4th Level is also where the Sorcerer starts to break away form the Wilder in terms of Spells Known. At fourth they have an extra 1st level spell compared to the Wilder, by 20th the Wilder has one power from each level except 1st and 9th (where he has two), whereas the Sorcerer has 5 1st, 5 2nd, 4 3rd, 4 4th, 4 5th, 3 6th, 3 7th, 3 8th, and 3 9th level spells. The Sorcerer gets 34 spells known (excluding cantrips) while the Wilder gets 11 powers known. Still unfair? I won't even bore you with the details of arcane powers that are a whole level higher for psionic classes, forcing the psions/wilders to get two more levels than their sorcerer/wizard counterparts would need just to get fly or teleport.

I left out cantrips--even though arcane/divine classes get them while psionic classes have to waste a 1st level power for their cantrips.

I love psionics. Love 'em. But if I had to pick Sorcerer or Wilder it'd be Sorcerer every time--the versatility is much more useful than being a gigantic boom-stick.

 

[pawsplay]

It's allowing him to freely cast spells that are effectively levels above his character and thus skewing the EL of the encounter, IMO -- sure there's the danger of the enervation, but it doesn't offset when the risk is so low...

How do you figure that? First of all, +1 or +3 manifester level is not going to skew the EL. It's an ability that will be used at most a handful of times, and that "problem" already exists in the form of clerics with the Good domain, Arcane Thesis, a couple of magic items, and any PrC with the Spell Power ability. Using an ability you already have at a slightly higher level is not that exciting. Wizards can already use wands and staves.

Second, the risk is not "low." The dangers of wild surge are significant enough I am not sure I would use the ability even every session. Effectively, the same chance a fighter has of scoring a critical hit, the wilder has of taking themselves out for a round and losing the power points of one maxed out attack. The wilder could literally find themselves flanked by wights and just standing there watching stuff happen. If he's the main blaster of the group, enemy spellcasters might take the opportunity to cast summon monster and drop something right on top of him, with no chance of him blasting them in the interim. A dazed caster is like Christmas for the bad guys. The risk is high enough the ability qualifies more as a temptation than an actual bonus... the times when you would use it are highly dependent on the situation.

 

[KarinsDad]

The Sorcerer gets 34 spells known (excluding cantrips) while the Wilder gets 11 powers known. Still unfair? I won't even bore you with the details of arcane powers that are a whole level higher for psionic classes, forcing the psions/wilders to get two more levels than their sorcerer/wizard counterparts would need just to get fly or teleport.

Actually, those are one level earlier (level 6 Fly for Sorcerer, level 7 Fly for Psion) and one level later (level 10 Teleport for Sorcerer, level 9 Teleport for Psion).

And, you mean like Temporal Acceleration that gives a mini-Time Stop 7 levels earlier for psionic types?

Or personal Mind Blank that can be acquired 3 levels earlier?

Or how about Schism which allowed the equivalent of a Quickened power every round 3 levels earlier than a Sorcerer can Quicken a spell (assuming the Sorcerer can gain the ability to Quicken a spell via one of the more recent splat books)?

Energy powers which average more damage at the same level and can be changed for energy type on the fly?

The ability to manifest while grappled with no roll?

Metapsionic feats which are cheaper than their metamagic equivalents?

I love psionics. Love 'em. But if I had to pick Sorcerer or Wilder it'd be Sorcerer every time--the versatility is much more useful than being a gigantic boom-stick.

One cannot compare Wilders to Sorcerers. One has to compare Psions to Sorcerers and generally speaking, Psions win out.

36 powers (many augmentable) vs. 34 spells. More feats.


The two main advantages Sorcerers have over Psions is that they can last a little longer and they can metamagic every round without taking an additional feat to do so.


I once posted a query here (I think it got lost in the last data loss) for people to write the significant pros and cons of Psions and Sorcerers, and the Psions won out by about a 3 to 2 margin. Even with the "bigger, better, badder" aspect of some of the splat books (like allowing Sorcerers to Quicken spells and the Orb spells), Psions still win out.

 

[KarinsDad]

How do you figure that? First of all, +1 or +3 manifester level is not going to skew the EL.

Actually, it is +1 to +6 manifester level and when combined with Energy powers which already do 28% more damage on average, it is closer to +2 to +11 manifester level with respect to damage for energy powers.

A 15th level Orb spell averages 52.5 points of damage. Empowered, it is 79 points of damage. Maximized, it is 90 points of damage.

A 15th level Surged Energy power averages 90 points of damage. Empowered it is 121.5.