Too powerful? What am I missing... (please help)

[AllisterH]

I once posted a query here (I think it got lost in the last data loss) for people to write the significant pros and cons of Psions and Sorcerers, and the Psions won out by about a 3 to 2 margin. Even with the "bigger, better, badder" aspect of some of the splat books (like allowing Sorcerers to Quicken spells and the Orb spells), Psions still win out.

Actually, I agree with this IMHO.

Psions ARE stronger than sorcerors (and personally, I prefer sorcerors to be the top of the full casting classes which yes, I think Clerics, Druids and Wizards need to be dialled back).

The thing about Enervation and the Surge is that a DM has to factor in the nova capability of the class since it is much easier to do. Sure, there's a 10% chance of botching it, but the payoff is HUGE.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Actually, it is +1 to +6 manifester level and when combined with Energy powers which already do 28% more damage on average, it is closer to +2 to +11 manifester level with respect to damage for energy powers.

A 15th level Orb spell averages 52.5 points of damage. Empowered, it is 79 points of damage. Maximized, it is 90 points of damage.

A 15th level Surged Energy power averages 90 points of damage. Empowered it is 121.5.

Considering the +6 modifier in a vacuum isn't really fair though--that's a 30% chance of enervation, which is rather substantial. The Wilder who constantly +6 surges will be missing from about 1/3 of all rounds due to enervation, and depending on when this is timed, it can be devastating for her.

 

[irdeggman]

Metapsionic feats which are cheaper than their metamagic equivalents?

Maybe cheaper but only a single metapsionic feat can be applied at once since each one causes expenditure of the psionic focus and at best (using the Psionic Meditation feat) it is a move action to regain it. But classes other that a psion don't get the bonus feats and so are left with some serious choices to make.


Sorcerers can use more than 1 metamagic feat at once with no extra increase in casting time (other than the time for applying a single one).

 

[KarinsDad]

Considering the +6 modifier in a vacuum isn't really fair though--that's a 30% chance of enervation, which is rather substantial. The Wilder who constantly +6 surges will be missing from about 1/3 of all rounds due to enervation, and depending on when this is timed, it can be devastating for her.

Considering the damage in a vacuum isn't really fair though--that's often 70% (or more) of the BBEGs hit points which allows the other 3 PCs 30% or 10% each to do in round one.

Sure, the Wilder is out for a round three times in ten, but the BBEG is out longer (permanently). And even being out for a round, the NPC minions will still quickly get mopped up and a lot less party resources will be expended in the process.

Note: this does apply to dragons where the Wilder only does maybe 30% of its hit points per round, only to most creatures and NPCs which tend to only have a few hit dice more than the PCs at most.

 

[moritheil]

9) Psions can go "nova", since their PPs are flexible. No other magic user can do this.

FWIW, I agree with nearly all your points, but disagree with this. As I posted earlier, divine metamagic/DSP builds can go nova.

 

[Slaved]

Actually, those are one level earlier (level 6 Fly for Sorcerer, level 7 Fly for Psion) and one level later (level 10 Teleport for Sorcerer, level 9 Teleport for Psion).

Both psionic fly and psionic teleport are nomad only powers. That means that most psions will not have access to these powers without spending a feat and the wilder must spend a feat for each if they are wanted.

And, you mean like Temporal Acceleration that gives a mini-Time Stop 7 levels earlier for psionic types?

6th level power instead of a ninth level spell but with a lesser duration and greater drawbacks. It can still be problematic though.

Or personal Mind Blank that can be acquired 3 levels earlier?

7th level power that is personal only versus an 8th level spell that can be put onto anyone? Getting it early is nice but being able to have it on the whole party is great!

Or how about Schism which allowed the equivalent of a Quickened power every round

Schism is telepath only and the extra mental standard action that you get has a manifester level of 6 lower than the one manifesting it. It also is not going to be buffing you with personal only powers.

(assuming the Sorcerer can gain the ability to Quicken a spell via one of the more recent splat books)

They do like to stick it to the sorcerer do they not?

Energy powers which average more damage at the same level and can be changed for energy type on the fly?

The more average damage is contingent on factors that you did not say here and other casters can do the same if they try hard enough. Sorcerers do have better and easier access to negative energy and force damage though.

The ability to manifest while grappled with no roll?

The concentration skill says that you are wrong.

Metapsionic feats which are cheaper than their metamagic equivalents?

Focus is a huge cost.

One cannot compare Wilders to Sorcerers.

So what do we compare wilders to?

One has to compare Psions to Sorcerers and generally speaking, Psions win out.

This comparison has so many problems it boggles the mind.

36 powers (many augmentable) vs. 34 spells.

My system resource document says that you are wrong here.

The two main advantages Sorcerers have over Psions is that they can last a little longer and they can metamagic every round without taking an additional feat to do so.

A little bit longer?

I once posted a query here (I think it got lost in the last data loss) for people to write the significant pros and cons of Psions and Sorcerers, and the Psions won out by about a 3 to 2 margin.

Do you have a link to this? I have not been here long but I have seen a lot of people complain that the sorcerer is too weak and is perfect for taking into a prestige class because more levels in the class does not give them anything. Maybe this is reinforcing the point that sorcerers are a bad class that needs some love?

 

[Slaved]

Considering the damage in a vacuum isn't really fair though--that's often 70% (or more) of the BBEGs hit points which allows the other 3 PCs 30% or 10% each to do in round one.

Sure, the Wilder is out for a round three times in ten, but the BBEG is out longer (permanently). And even being out for a round, the NPC minions will still quickly get mopped up and a lot less party resources will be expended in the process.

Note: this does apply to dragons where the Wilder only does maybe 30% of its hit points per round, only to most creatures and NPCs which tend to only have a few hit dice more than the PCs at most.

70% or more of the creatures hit points in a single wild surge? Can you show me the numbers for this?

 

[Enforcer]

Slaved already did it for me (thanks!), but my response would have been...

Actually, those are one level earlier (level 6 Fly for Sorcerer, level 7 Fly for Psion) and one level later (level 10 Teleport for Sorcerer, level 9 Teleport for psion).

Depending on what discipline the psion chooses...Sorcerers have access to their entire spell list without limitation, psions lose out on dozens of powers, many of which are arcane classics, automatically due to discipline choice.

And, you mean like Temporal Acceleration that gives a mini-Time Stop 7 levels earlier for psionic types?

If by "mini" you mean "not nearly as effective as" (and it's not) then what's the problem? Lower-level powers should be less powerful than higher-level ones, so why the fuss when that's actually the case?

Or personal Mind Blank that can be acquired 3 levels earlier?

Psions don't get meteor swarm, time stop, or gate, (not to mention old standbys like teleport, suggestion, fly, etc. without automatic prohibition) why should you complain that psions get a personal-only mind blank and arcane guys don't?

Or how about Schism which allowed the equivalent of a Quickened power every round 3 levels earlier than a Sorcerer can Quicken a spell (assuming the Sorcerer can gain the ability to Quicken a spell via one of the more recent splat books)?

Woo wee, I get to burn my power points manifesting my weakest powers! After wasting a round I could've spent buffing myself, buffing my party, or actually engaging the enemy...what a great ability! Seriously, schism isn't nearly the uber-power some make it out to be. You waste a round to then get a much weaker extra-psion. Heck, the Leadership feat is an obviously better (and non-pp/non-round-wasting) choice.

Energy powers which average more damage at the same level and can be changed for energy type on the fly?

Yeah, a 11pp energy ball does more damage than an 11th level caster's fireball, and has energy choice. The energy ball is also the equivalent of a 6th level spell, so it should be better. Wizards/sorcerers get spell-scaling for free (their 10d6 fireball is equivalent to 5pp, whereas the psion has to spend 10pp for the same number of dice), which is a huge advantage over psionics. The fact psions get energy choice helps balance out their non-scaling-power disadvantage.

The ability to manifest while grappled with no roll?

As Slaved said, Concentration? How many spells don't have Somatic components again? Without wasting my time checking, here's a few from memory: all the power words, teleport, dimension door. So the arcane guy can either stun/blind/kill you or escape scot-free without breaking a sweat.

Metapsionic feats which are cheaper than their metamagic equivalents?

Again, no, no they're not. Sorcerers can do metamagic every round, psions can't without taking an extra feat and blowing a move-action that provokes AoOs. Psionic focus is a cost.

One cannot compare Wilders to Sorcerers. One has to compare Psions to Sorcerers and generally speaking, Psions win out.

36 powers (many augmentable) vs. 34 spells. More feats.

Except that...

The two main advantages Sorcerers have over Psions is that they can last a little longer and they can metamagic every round without taking an additional feat to do so.

Wait a minute, that sounds familiar...

I once posted a query here (I think it got lost in the last data loss) for people to write the significant pros and cons of Psions and Sorcerers, and the Psions won out by about a 3 to 2 margin. Even with the "bigger, better, badder" aspect of some of the splat books (like allowing Sorcerers to Quicken spells and the Orb spells), Psions still win out.

Your highly compelling poll aside, I'm not convinced. Plenty of us have run psionics and found it to be balanced with arcane magic (equally compelling, I know). Also, I love how the argument shifted form wilder vs. sorcerer to psion vs. sorcerer. I see what you did there and I view it as concession: Wilders are weaker than sorcerers.

 

[moritheil]

Plenty of us have run psionics and found it to be balanced with arcane magic (equally compelling, I know).

Okay, for the record, I am one of those people. However, for the sake of fairness:

Also, I love how the argument shifted form wilder vs. sorcerer to psion vs. sorcerer. I see what you did there and I view it as concession: Wilders are weaker than sorcerers.

I don't think that's what's going on. Wilders are better than sorcs at blasting and worse at utility. KD switched the focus to psion/sorc because there was a utility argument going on.

 

[Enforcer]

I don't think that's what's going on. Wilders are better than sorcs at blasting and worse at utility. KD switched the focus to psion/sorc because there was a utility argument going on.

I definitely agree that Wilders are better at blasting than sorcs but worse at utility (though sorcerers can blast longer than wilders, if not as "hot"). I'm not so sure that it was a utility argument rather than a general weaker/stronger argument, however. My position is that wilders are overall weaker than sorcerers, due to versatility alone. That said, nothing is going to be accomplished here (other than crapping all over the OP's thread, for which I apologize). KarinsDad will never be convinced that psionics is not over-powered, and I will never be convinced that it is. *shrug*